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  #41  
Old 27.03.2009, 13:31
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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I dont suddenly feel that my input, whatever it is, should be given a cash value , simply because there will be potential advertisers on the site.
Do you feel it is morally acceptable for your altruistic inclinations to be exploited for hard currency?
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  #42  
Old 27.03.2009, 14:06
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

This is the short version of what I believe Shorrick is saying:

To put it cynically is it?: Thanks for keeping this going leading to it being commercially viable, it's mine now, nout for you, please continue to contribute to EF's future success which you won't have a share of, my only commitment is to keep the forum going and I reserve the right to use your past and future content for my enrichment without compensation to you.
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  #43  
Old 27.03.2009, 14:06
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

This is a slightly longer version exploring the thorny issue of motivation pre versus post-commercial status of EF:

In sympathy to Shorrick's POV, this is my view of "the Facts" surrounding some elements of the EF addressed by Shorrick:

-EF was until yesterday non-commercial and supported at least partially by donations on this basis
-Donators as the previous "stake/shareholder equivalents" are not being compensated by shares in the new commercial EF
-Donators may however rather receive a partial return of cash where it exists, but no other monetary or preferential/shared ownership value will be attributed to the role/significance of their previous monetary/time/content support in keeping the forum going
-No other compensation will be made to reflect their shared investment/interest in the future of the forum at that time along with Mark and others, leading to it being saleable as a commercial venture with future commercial potential
-Previous "investors/contibutors/donators" will not be invited to continue their investment in the commercial future of the EF with a return in the form of shares/preferences/dividends
-Persistent, regular "value-adding" content contributors will not be compensated for continuing to contribute to the premium value of EF in a "columnist/blogger-type fashion"
-The right retained by the new EF to republish your content is not being compensated although you retain "copyright"

--end of my interpretation of the Facts, the following is pure opinion/conjecture----
It's a bit like the Facebook issue, but at least pre-commercial Facebook donators/investors in the beginning got shares...

I guess it's like any new terms of service as governed by the Law of Obligations in Switzerland, if you don't like the new "contract/terms of use" you have 90 days to withdraw.

This seems to be the spirit of Shorrick's proposal, at least he's not being confontational/agitational, simply going AWOL as so many have before.

It's really a question of motivation, now that the commercial nature of EF has changed, are you still as motivated to contribute in terms of content, (previous) donations, time, effort given the new terms and conditions and your exclusion from any commercial benefit accruing from the use your content without compensation?
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  #44  
Old 27.03.2009, 14:37
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

Questions that I'd like an answer to:

1. Will the Commericial section go or will people only be able to post there for a fee, or for free?
2. Likewise for the Commerical events section?

3. If a poster asks a question such as, where can I buy x, can we suggest anywhere without posts being censored.

4. Would a complaint about goods or a service in Switzerland be allowed - if the goods or service had previously been, or was currently being commerically advertised on EF?
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  #45  
Old 27.03.2009, 15:14
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

I neither feel exploited nor have my morals been betrayed. As for my altruistic inclinations... theyre for me to decide if i use them or not .
I will continue to support the forum as long as i feel happy with it, and as long as i feel i can gain information from it, and at the same time can help others settle in here in Switzerland.
I have not been exploited and neither do i feel that i shall. If it gets to that point then it will be time for me to stand up and say something, and make sure im heard. In the meantimethe words soapbox and high horse spring to mind..

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Do you feel it is morally acceptable for your altruistic inclinations to be exploited for hard currency?
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  #46  
Old 27.03.2009, 15:18
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

Great questions Tom1234. EG if you look at the "recommended financial advisors" of ToyTown it's limited to 8 or so sponsors and the one other reco has been slammed for not so being by one of the sponsors. To his credit this sponsor has over 1000 posts to the finance section.

Is this necessarily "worse" than the EF equivalent? ie a somewhat higgledypiggledy list, and very little participation by any of the recommended individuals themselves that I can see. I'd see a certain advantage to encouraging a couple of "pros" to be interested in actively participating in exchange for the (in)direct advertising.

I guess the key point is censored will turn people off. But it can be a real issue.. one french regional site I used to contribute to pulled their user restaurant reviews as the sponsors couldnt take the "constructive" opinions expressed! I dont go there much anymore for impartial advice.

D
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  #47  
Old 27.03.2009, 15:20
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

I did read the posts and im not the one getting excited. You took the one sentence out of context .... Im perfectly happy for EF to continue in its present vein with or without commercial assistance. I see the added value of having a commercial site as well as the pitfalls that come with it .. its a balance between how you can afford to keep the site going and how do you keep the 100's of loyal contributors happy ... im happy to accept a certain amount of advertising , if it helps finance things and keeps EF in its present shape and form. Id be also happy to pay a small fee to advertise my services to EF prospects, and be just as happy to stand or fall by my rep.



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Read the posts before getting too excited. The only person actually expecting a commercial return so far are the new owners, and I personally have nothing whatsoever against that vs the stability it should bring.

As a member I will continue to contribute freely, and I have no interest or time to become a mod .. but I do feel that moderation bandwidth and team stability have been an issue since the first generation of "patron saints" moved on. Ive made no secret of that either to Nathu or new Editor Bob.

Obviously a commercial model was felt necessary to attract a suitable long term ownership model. Why should that logic not extend to the rest of the permanent "staff"? If the forum can attract the right number of loyal mods for free great for everyone. But for sure I would prefer to see more active moderation of some areas, and was simply wondering if this was a way to increase the population of willing parties. Plus I think the mods deserve to share given the contribution made.

D
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  #48  
Old 27.03.2009, 15:49
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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I neither feel exploited nor have my morals been betrayed. As for my altruistic inclinations... theyre for me to decide if i use them or not .
Yep, me neither - but that might be because we're hardly massive contributors.

If I'd made a couple of thousand (useful) posts, and/or had given up my free time to help with keeping EF going, I might feel differently about my efforts now lining someone elses pockets.

Perhaps some of the forums new advertising revenue could go to good cause/s, then at least the forum has a legacy, other than simply making money for its new owner.
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  #49  
Old 27.03.2009, 17:35
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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3.) An awful lot of people have also read conflicting opinions of "what Mark would have wanted".
There is a difference between what Mark would do and where he would take the forum should he be alive and still able to dedicate the time he used to to the forum and what he would do faced with the current circumstance.

I would guess that Robert has simply tried to look at the state of the EF now and make a decision based on what Mark would do faced with the same EF-State. Now, if Mark were still alive, the EF would not be in this state, but thats just my guess. No-one can say 100% what would be in an "if" scenario.

The effort and time people have given the EF only goes to show what a dedicated community this is. I for one am eternally grateful for it. This is an emotional move, for some more than others...
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  #50  
Old 27.03.2009, 18:14
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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I'm particularly looking forward to seeing this policy in place.
I can see that policy alienating a lot of "regulars" here in EF real fast..!!

Take a look at TT's stats: http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?act=Stats

Someone with 31 posts has already posted 3.1% of the day's postings. I can't believe EF has anywhere near the volume of postings that TT has so for sake of argument lets say EF has a third of what TT's volume is. That means someone with only 10 posts for the day is pushing the limits towards a ban...?!?! I'm afraid if such a policy is implemented here in EF we may loose some of our best posters out of frustration.
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  #51  
Old 27.03.2009, 18:20
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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I can see that policy alienating a lot of "regulars" here in EF real fast..!!

Take a look at TT's stats: http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?act=Stats

Someone with 31 posts has already posted 3.1% of the day's postings. I can't believe EF has anywhere near the volume of postings that TT has so for sake of argument lets say EF has a third of what TT's volume is. That means someone with only 10 posts for the day is pushing the limits towards a ban...?!?! I'm afraid if such a policy is implemented here in EF we may loose some of our best posters out of frustration.
What he said, good post vwild1
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  #52  
Old 27.03.2009, 18:24
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

Hold your horses there. Nobody ever said the same policies are going to be implemented here as on TT.

I already said that little here will change.

Yokine merely speculated that they thought the post limiting function on TT would be good on here. That doesn't mean it is going to happen.
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  #53  
Old 27.03.2009, 18:48
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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Yokine merely speculated that they thought the post limiting function on TT would be good on here. That doesn't mean it is going to happen.
Such a troublemaker that one

Welcome and good luck.
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  #54  
Old 27.03.2009, 18:58
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

Personally I can compare the EF to my PhD studies if that analogy applies? You give 90% of your input and expertise (10% comes from your mentor) and you spend 100% of your time publishing papers for journals and conferences. At the end of the day, all the intellectual property and copyright belongs to the university which gets more grants and funds to further the research and you only get rewarded with your thesis and recognition
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Old 27.03.2009, 19:12
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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Personally I can compare the EF to my PhD studies if that analogy applies? You give 90% of your input and expertise (10% comes from your mentor) and you spend 100% of your time publishing papers for journals and conferences. At the end of the day, all the intellectual property and copyright belongs to the university which gets more grants and funds to further the research and you only get rewarded with your thesis and recognition
And a bursary, grant or stipend I presume? You surely didnt fully fund your own phd? DD
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  #56  
Old 27.03.2009, 19:17
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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And a bursary, grant or stipend I presume? You surely didnt fully fund your own phd? DD
Frankly, I was exception. Had worked in industry for a couple of years and put my money aside to be able to survive for two years while being unpaid. Even had to pay for a minature laboratory model to prove the concept and theory But this is a long story... and offtopic!
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  #57  
Old 27.03.2009, 19:18
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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Knowing the time and effort it takes to really make things work so efficiently I think its not a surprise that they will want to see some sort of a return.

Knowing the time and effort it takes to make things work so efficiently only reveals the extent of Mark's altruism, and implicitly reveals that it shouldn't be a surprise that there are people out there that are willing to do it without willing to see some sort of return other than spiritual satisfaction. Of course probably not as many as potential investors.

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We, the users however, can come and go as we please, post if we wish or not. Many of us probably spend as much time our admins but with none of the responsibility.
True. However one may find that some of "we the users" aren't interested in an assymetrical agreement.

Not to mention the leonine aspects of the new T&C's.
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  #58  
Old 27.03.2009, 19:22
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

we're getting a lot of new swedish members joining since yesterdays news not sure i'd want to join an expat forum in Sweden whilst living in Switzerland - I assume this is because the Local is based in Sweden that these new members are hearing about us?

Nicky
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  #59  
Old 27.03.2009, 19:28
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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Not to mention the leonine aspects of the new T&C's.
Wow I thought I had good vocubulary.. you mean as in "uneven sharing of profit and loss"
as opposed to "looking like a lion" I guess, or some sort of "roman poetic rhyming meter" or Im puzzled.

D
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Old 27.03.2009, 19:33
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Re: EF Partners with "The Local", Transfer of Ownership

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we're getting a lot of new swedish members joining since yesterdays news not sure i'd want to join an expat forum in Sweden whilst living in Switzerland - I assume this is because the Local is based in Sweden that these new members are hearing about us?
As was pointed out elsewhere .......... if these guys are joining then Wednesday night drinks could become very popular again
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