Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Business & entrepreneur
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13.05.2015, 23:23
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 4
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
pastilvania has no particular reputation at present
Ebay/Paypal problem

I have a problem with eBay/PayPal transaction that I am not quite sure how to solve at the current point. The buyer claimed not to receive the item I shipped to him, the item for which he chose a non-trackable shipping option. He opened a PayPal dispute and immediately claimed for a refund. PayPal has awarded the payback to him without any valid proof and without providing any evidence of the seller (me) being in breach of any contract rule. I provided all proof I had, which is for example a postage receipt in this case.

my question is: does anyone have some experience/tips in order to bring the case to a small claim court and have it arbitrated/solved according to evidence rather than unknown criteria? I have also found some paypal-community forums, but only for US and UK. Should anyone know one covering Europe/Switzerland, please let me know.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13.05.2015, 23:30
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,521
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,544 Times in 4,681 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
I have a problem with eBay/PayPal transaction that I am not quite sure how to solve at the current point. The buyer claimed not to receive the item I shipped to him, the item for which he chose a non-trackable shipping option. He opened a PayPal dispute and immediately claimed for a refund. PayPal has awarded the payback to him without any valid proof and without providing any evidence of the seller (me) being in breach of any contract rule. I provided all proof I had, which is for example a postage receipt in this case.

my question is: does anyone have some experience/tips in order to bring the case to a small claim court and have it arbitrated/solved according to evidence rather than unknown criteria? I have also found some paypal-community forums, but only for US and UK. Should anyone know one covering Europe/Switzerland, please let me know.
Did you send it registered - einschreiben?
If not forget it.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 14.05.2015, 00:36
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,134
Groaned at 226 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 5,094 Times in 2,632 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

You are screwed... PayPal nearly always side with the buyer. That's why if I ever sell anything it is always sent with registered signed for post.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank rob1 for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 14.05.2015, 08:31
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,152
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,528 Times in 3,870 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

You have no proof you sent it, end of story
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 14.05.2015, 12:42
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,259 Times in 554 Posts
neddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputation
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

It's a scam I have heard of. Claim you have not received something to get your money back & sit there smugly with the item in your hands. Hopefully it will catch up with them if they try it on a few times with different people as Paypal will have a history.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14.05.2015, 13:38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 308
Groaned at 28 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 339 Times in 129 Posts
reids has a reputation beyond reputereids has a reputation beyond reputereids has a reputation beyond reputereids has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

The only ebay dispute I had took 4 months of back and forth to get resolved. I received a non working item, he claimed it was working when he sent it. Ebay kept closing the dispute in his favour, I kept getting them to reopen it and had to jump through hoops to get various paperwork they asked for. Eventually I got my money back but it wasn't straightforward.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14.05.2015, 13:48
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,408
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,604 Times in 6,214 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

I once had an item I bought on Ricardo not delivered. Unfortuanately I payed by bank transfer, not PayPal, so there was no arbiter I could appeal to. The seller said the item had been posted and the tracking code showed it had been delivered (and shared the tracking code with me -. and it was true what he said). I asked how it could have been delivered if I hadn't signed for it. The post said it had been signed for but were unwilling to show any evidence. The seller suggested I go to the police but in the end I let it drop.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 14.05.2015, 17:44
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 4
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
pastilvania has no particular reputation at present
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Hi, thanks for the replies. I would say that this approach of no proof of sending is a bit too simplistic to be legally valid. Like this, 90% of buyers would buy and get their money back a month later. I have the proof within the shipment choice made by the buyer when he completed the transaction. But of course any user's experience out there is useful to gauge the size of the scam and if anything can be done "legally" about it, before I officially declare myself victim of the scam.

According to the eBay user agreement,

"When buying an item, you agree to the rules for buyers and that:
You are responsible for reading the full item listing before making a bid or commitment to buy.

You enter into a legally binding contract to purchase an item when you commit to buy an item or if you have the winning bid (or your bid is otherwise accepted)."

So I take it from the feedback received here so far that people generally do not tend to challenge scams like this. However, if someone else tried to do that at at some point, I would like to ear from them. I am searching for the Swiss legislation about online shops and e-market but I have not been successful so far. Any hint in that direction would also be appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14.05.2015, 18:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,259 Times in 554 Posts
neddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputation
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

I would try to find out more about the person. Google his e-mail & see if he is on Facebook. Read the feedback they have on Ebay & see if anyone else has mentioned a problem (even in the positive as many people put a negative comment in the positive so it gets seen).

Last week a friend of mine who sells electronic format files had a buyer order her product. She sent it, the e-mail was read (she got a read receipt) & THREE MINUTES later the person filed a complaint with Paypal saying they did not receive the files.

I got screwed on dvds never turning up. I believed the * who said he'd posted it & it could take a few weeks & didn't know you have to submit a complaint within 45 days. Now I am less trusting.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14.05.2015, 21:03
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,141
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,722 Times in 9,478 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
It's a scam I have heard of. Claim you have not received something to get your money back & sit there smugly with the item in your hands.
I recently emailed someone on ebay that I hadn't received my order (a Hello Kitty shower curtain for my wife), which I hadn't, and within minutes received a charge back to my PayPal.

I gave the seller a very positive review.

Guess that's why most stuff I order from China comes registered.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16.05.2015, 12:43
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Zug (ZG)
Posts: 14
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
garadnair has no particular reputation at present
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
I have a problem with eBay/PayPal transaction that I am not quite sure how to solve at the current point. The buyer claimed not to receive the item I shipped to him, the item for which he chose a non-trackable shipping option. He opened a PayPal dispute and immediately claimed for a refund. PayPal has awarded the payback to him without any valid proof and without providing any evidence of the seller (me) being in breach of any contract rule. I provided all proof I had, which is for example a postage receipt in this case.

my question is: does anyone have some experience/tips in order to bring the case to a small claim court and have it arbitrated/solved according to evidence rather than unknown criteria? I have also found some paypal-community forums, but only for US and UK. Should anyone know one covering Europe/Switzerland, please let me know.
if no tracking number available, you lost I think.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 16.05.2015, 13:16
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: GE
Posts: 140
Groaned at 13 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 137 Times in 57 Posts
bugger is considered knowledgeablebugger is considered knowledgeablebugger is considered knowledgeable
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Isn't there a claim somewhere that the seller is not responsible for custom, duty fee and mail loss (in case of non tracking mail)? Or is it just the experienced sellers who know this trick too well.
Anyway, this system seems so flawed now. Buyers can claim they never received the item and ask for a refund; but if sellers are allowed to disclaim, they can just not send the item.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bugger for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 16.05.2015, 13:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,134
Groaned at 226 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 5,094 Times in 2,632 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

That is exactly the scam people use.. that's why many people and companies insist on registered delivery
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 16.05.2015, 13:55
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Zug (ZG)
Posts: 14
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
garadnair has no particular reputation at present
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
Isn't there a claim somewhere that the seller is not responsible for custom, duty fee and mail loss (in case of non tracking mail)? Or is it just the experienced sellers who know this trick too well.
Anyway, this system seems so flawed now. Buyers can claim they never received the item and ask for a refund; but if sellers are allowed to disclaim, they can just not send the item.
That is why it is worth sending to EU countries from EU countries - so crosiing the border. No customs and other complications, but if the parcel is with tracking number the buyer can see if the parcel is the the customs even if you send it from CH.

The only quitting point for the seller if the buyer wanted to have delivery without tracking or selected a cheaper delivery.

Actually in Germany Paypal is not really prefered - same reasons as above. At the most of the cases IBAN+SWIFT is the payment.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 16.05.2015, 14:23
moggy's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thurgau (& London, UK)
Posts: 1,488
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 768 Times in 511 Posts
moggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
I would say that this approach of no proof of sending is a bit too simplistic to be legally valid. Like this, 90% of buyers would buy and get their money back a month later. I have the proof within the shipment choice made by the buyer when he completed the transaction. But of course any user's experience out there is useful to gauge the size of the scam and if anything can be done "legally" about it, before I officially declare myself victim of the scam.

I disagree with your figure of 90%, although there are the small amount of dishonest buyers out there.

By Ebay good idea to check what feedback the person has left for their sellers as well as what feedback the seller has left for the buyer. Did you leave feedback, something like "full refund as item I posted not received"

By posting I would like to remind sender to put their return address on item, as well as ensuring the addresses are secured well, i.e. if not written direction, but attached with paper. Have know occasion item coming to us by courier and we had to go to the courier office as the paper address had got torn and they could not read address.

Sometimes items might get lost in the post, but I suspect they are only 1 or 10% of the amount of times buyers claim not received.

Because of fine profit margins with ebay, the decision whether to send by trackable means appears to be left very much to the seller. Sometimes I buy many items of low value & low post, I immediately leave good feedback on receipt.

I once had a buyer claim to me via message non receipt, then the next day apologise as found the flatmate had it.

Some new people to Switzerland are not aware to check their Milkbox for parcels.

Sorry not able to offer OP any suggestion, but will keep a lookout on this thread in case he does peruse to see the update.

Most sellers would not send something above 'X' amount accept by trackable means, though not necessarily by 'signed for'.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 16.05.2015, 15:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 15 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,259 Times in 554 Posts
neddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputationneddy has an excellent reputation
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

The last parcel I received was put outside the neighbours front door by the postman which I thought very odd. My dress certainly wouldn't have suited the neighbour & the bra wouldn't have fitted him either.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 31.05.2015, 12:02
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Bern
Posts: 4
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
pastilvania has no particular reputation at present
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Hi, thanks for your valuable feedback.

I did not send or leave any feedback. I am still in touch with the buyer. The eBay regulation say that in case of a private to private transaction, in case of loss/damage in transit, the buyer alway bears the risk. This is in agreement with the Swiss Legislation, as far as I am aware of. The buyer has chosen a non-trackable option (which I had offered too in the invoice). Post.ch terms and conditions do not provide tracking and/or insurance on such options.

I have also a picture of the package before being sent, showing the correct recipient and sender addresses. Unfortunately, not always I manage to take a picture after the postal label is applied. In this case, it was not possible. I have the postal receipt showing the weight, matching the weight shown in the Customs Clearance green label. Also addresses are applied with stickers. I am always very careful with packing.

I am still battling with Paypal, but those are useless. All the information about the transaction has been provided to them multiple times. As soon as I have enough evidence of their non-cooperation, I will get to legal advice.

the point here is that the buyer chooses a non-trackable option, finalises the eBay transaction, which is namely a legally binding contract. The shipping choice is part of the contract conditions, so by choosing a non-trackable option, the buyer accepts the (however small) risk of loss or damage in transit.

I agree that I will no longer offer non-trackable options, but one has to be bitten before coming to this unreasonable conclusion. I have shipped over 300 items over the last 10 months, with over 75% of them going to Asia (like this one). I offer Economy and Priority and Trackable, because of clear difference in the costs, and to make the buyer a favour. In my (no doubt wrong) way of thinking, a responsible buyer would make their calculation and if they accept the rick of potential loss, then they must assume their full responsibility.

But the world is far from ideal so, being kind is no longer an option.

If you have any further feedback, I would love to hear it. I will update as soon as I manage to finally upset someone at Paypal and they will actually *addresS* all the points I have risen in my correspondence with them. Plus I have claimed Seller Protection for this transaction, but they have so far ignored it. I am ready to write to them every week for the foreseeable future until they react. In the meanwhile, I will seek legal advice in Switzerland.

Quote:
View Post
I disagree with your figure of 90%, although there are the small amount of dishonest buyers out there.

By Ebay good idea to check what feedback the person has left for their sellers as well as what feedback the seller has left for the buyer. Did you leave feedback, something like "full refund as item I posted not received"

By posting I would like to remind sender to put their return address on item, as well as ensuring the addresses are secured well, i.e. if not written direction, but attached with paper. Have know occasion item coming to us by courier and we had to go to the courier office as the paper address had got torn and they could not read address.

Sometimes items might get lost in the post, but I suspect they are only 1 or 10% of the amount of times buyers claim not received.

Because of fine profit margins with ebay, the decision whether to send by trackable means appears to be left very much to the seller. Sometimes I buy many items of low value & low post, I immediately leave good feedback on receipt.

I once had a buyer claim to me via message non receipt, then the next day apologise as found the flatmate had it.

Some new people to Switzerland are not aware to check their Milkbox for parcels.

Sorry not able to offer OP any suggestion, but will keep a lookout on this thread in case he does peruse to see the update.

Most sellers would not send something above 'X' amount accept by trackable means, though not necessarily by 'signed for'.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank pastilvania for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 31.05.2015, 12:16
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,521
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,544 Times in 4,681 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Quote:
View Post
I disagree with your figure of 90%, although there are the small amount of dishonest buyers out there.

By Ebay good idea to check what feedback the person has left for their sellers as well as what feedback the seller has left for the buyer. Did you leave feedback, something like "full refund as item I posted not received"

By posting I would like to remind sender to put their return address on item, as well as ensuring the addresses are secured well, i.e. if not written direction, but attached with paper. Have know occasion item coming to us by courier and we had to go to the courier office as the paper address had got torn and they could not read address.

Sometimes items might get lost in the post, but I suspect they are only 1 or 10% of the amount of times buyers claim not received.

Because of fine profit margins with ebay, the decision whether to send by trackable means appears to be left very much to the seller. Sometimes I buy many items of low value & low post, I immediately leave good feedback on receipt.

I once had a buyer claim to me via message non receipt, then the next day apologise as found the flatmate had it.

Some new people to Switzerland are not aware to check their Milkbox for parcels.

Sorry not able to offer OP any suggestion, but will keep a lookout on this thread in case he does peruse to see the update.

Most sellers would not send something above 'X' amount accept by trackable means, though not necessarily by 'signed for'.
about "ensuring the addresses are secured well" I always enclose a packing list in the parcel with sender address and my address so if the outside label is lost I hope they look in the parcel
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 31.05.2015, 13:52
moggy's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thurgau (& London, UK)
Posts: 1,488
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 768 Times in 511 Posts
moggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond reputemoggy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

OP, I admire your tenacity.

Morally I agree with much of what you say in your post nr 17, you have proof of postage and buyer choose that method, they should take some responsibility they are able to receive their post safely

Thanks for stating item posted overseas not something within Switzerland.

Once, a laptop battery we did not receive. The seller wanted us to go half and half over the cost as said had posted it. Later when I posted a laptop battery via the Postal Counter from UK & stated the contents, sometime later received letter from Post Office to say item destroyed as not allowed as considered a danger – why the Post Office counter person did not tell me, I did not follow up.

I do not know how the Seller Protection works. The separation of Ebay & Paypal is around middle of June. Some years ago we were in dispute with a buyer in UK over the description for second hand non electronic. Low value item that we had requested pick up. Then buyer gave sob story would we post. The postage was more than the value of the large item. If buyer disputes, then have to give total refund, i.e. including postage. Long story, end of the day, buyer won, but then message to say covered by Seller Protection and got money back. The whole effort and the upset was too much for us. We learnt lessons going forward.

As you mentioned you have sold over 300 items, then I am taken aback that whoever (ebay/Paypal) does not offer to refund you on this occasion.

Although you have not mentioned the value of the item, none of my business, I would say I presume it is not in the hundreds or more, as then I would be surprised that you did not send via track-able means.

Thanks again for your update & looking forward to positive outcome for you.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 31.05.2015, 14:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,344
Groaned at 219 Times in 150 Posts
Thanked 3,863 Times in 1,539 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ebay/Paypal problem

Can I ask what you sent? If it was a parcel then they all have tracking in Switzerland IIRC
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ebay, paypal




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Paypal Scam! ( paypal.info ) MacGregor's Daughter Finance/banking/taxation 7 16.05.2012 16:52
Need of an ebay/paypal proxy with a registered address in the USA Salsa_Lover Items for sale 4 10.10.2011 00:19
ebay.ch seller want me to pay outside of ebay Perdita Other/general 13 15.07.2011 12:32
eBay UK account to Swiss eBay account? english-ish Other/general 4 26.10.2009 13:45
Be Warned... eBay & Paypal Support Fraudulent Activity Scott Business & entrepreneur 78 07.10.2009 21:38


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0