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  #261  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:28
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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A somewhat off-topic but related thought - is it not about time they introduce a e.g 50% premium to the health insurance of smokers here? Don't see why they should be subsidised by those who choose not to deliberately debilitate their own health and it would surely provide the financial incentive to push a few percent more to stop.
Smokers aren't being subsidized, they are subsidizing the non-smokers!

You do realized that the price of tobacco is about 90% tax, don't you?

Also, since smokers die sooner, they are LESS of a burden on social security, retirement, AI, etc.

Tom
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  #262  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:32
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Hmm, but then they would also have to charge people who are overweight, those who do extreme sports, those who binge drink / drink a lot, etc.
Probably right apart from the extreme sports one. When it goes wrong for them they tend to go splat on to a hard piece of ground somewhere - no hospital costs there!
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:32
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Also, since smokers die sooner, they are LESS of a burden on social security, retirement, AI, etc.
Certainly, but they're more prone to other diseases before they die, which puts up the price for healthcare insurance (in addition to messing up my fresh smelling clothes along with the fresh air that I like to breathe).
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:39
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

You're considering a move abroad, maybe you're a teacher and you could go anywhere in the world. Why would you choose Switzerland? i'm guessing it's attributes that attract you are the safeness, cleanness etc.

It's therefore not surprising that the expat view (i.e. the overwealming comments on this thread) are risk averse. The Swiss expat, when he/she could choose to be here, is going to be that sort of person - i'm not judging, i'm just saying...I doubt if EnglishForum.af has a similar topic
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:39
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Probably right apart from the extreme sports one. When it goes wrong for them they tend to go splat on to a hard piece of ground somewhere - no hospital costs there!
Hmm, not quite, some become paraplegics, we have a place in Nottwil for them. And THAT is pretty expensive... Plus you still have to go and fetch the pieces from the mountain, none of this "letting the vultures sort it out" business here.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:41
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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You're considering a move abroad, maybe you're a teacher and you could go anywhere in the world. Why would you choose Switzerland? i'm guessing it's attributes that attract you are the safeness, cleanness etc.

It's therefore not surprising that the expat view (i.e. the overwealming comments on this thread) are risk averse. The Swiss expat, when he/she could choose to be here, is going to be that sort of person - i'm not judging, i'm just saying...I doubt if EnglishForum.af has a similar topic
.......
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  #267  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:43
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Hmm, not quite, some become paraplegics, we have a place in Nottwil for them. And THAT is pretty expensive... Plus you still have to go and fetch the pieces from the mountain, none of this "letting the vultures sort it out" business here.
Agreed - on a personal level, I know a few paraplegics but no-one who has actually died.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:52
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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You're considering a move abroad, maybe you're a teacher and you could go anywhere in the world. Why would you choose Switzerland? i'm guessing it's attributes that attract you are the safeness, cleanness etc.

It's therefore not surprising that the expat view (i.e. the overwealming comments on this thread) are risk averse. The Swiss expat, when he/she could choose to be here, is going to be that sort of person - i'm not judging, i'm just saying...I doubt if EnglishForum.af has a similar topic
Interesting, brings me back to the comments many people have when someone complains about something in Switzerland: "If you don't like it, then go back home!" As if I should choose to go back to the USA and leave my husband here in Switzerland.

Also, as expats, I'm assuming most people here cannot simply vote to alter the smoking laws in Switzerland. You come here for a job, family, whatever... and despite your reasoning for deciding to stay, you are almost powerless to change the local laws. I will certainly encourage my husband to vote for smoking bans, but I cannot force anything in my position.
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Old 08.02.2011, 13:01
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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.......
You don't like? i was trying some cod pyschology.
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  #270  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:08
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Hmm, not quite, some become paraplegics, we have a place in Nottwil for them. And THAT is pretty expensive... Plus you still have to go and fetch the pieces from the mountain, none of this "letting the vultures sort it out" business here.
99% of the people that practice medium/high risk sports in Switzerland buy coverage from REGA (or similar)... That takes care of rescue costs, and anything else that the Employers Accident Insurance is not... Personal Insurance comes in play only after the aforementioned.
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  #271  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:12
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Hmm, but then they would also have to charge people who are overweight, those who do extreme sports, those who binge drink / drink a lot, etc. Smokers are actually charged extra "insurance" on every packet they buy.
Well OK then - maybe all the above should pay more. Sounds fair. The point about the tax on cigarettes is irrelevant in this country where healthcare is privately funded.

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Actually in some places they pay less...

Why should they stop? It's their choice just as it's your not to smoke/drink/take on extreme sports etc etc. It's a legal habit. Either vote to ban it (yes completely) or stop complaining...

Then again the next one will be the hike in your pension pot. All those people complaining about their pensions should be encouraging people to smoke. They pay in the same and take out less. If people live longer the premiums go up, so it's a catch 22.
I did not know that smokers paid less for health insurance in some places - I'd only heard of them being charged a premium by insurance companies. If it really was more profitable for the health insurers to have smoking clients then I'm sure they wouldn't be penalising it. Smoking related illnesses tend to be chronic, rather than short-lived, and therefore very costly.

As for why should they stop - because it is killing them! However I agree with personal choice and so on, just not that I should have to subsidise someone's slow-suicide with sky-high health insurance premiums.

The pension question is a different topic really. I would prefer that people live healthier lives and give up on the notion of stopping work with 25 years of life left (something that is quickly being forced on folk throughout the Western world anyway now). I guess if someone hasn't smoked themselves onto an iron-lung in their early sixties then they could carry on working a bit longer.

Sounds harsh but lets not pretend smoking is pretty.
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  #272  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:17
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Ok, back to cigarettes - if you want to express your freedom, do so by voting, discussing philosophy and making conscious choices in positive aspects, not by increasing the profits of the tobacco companies.
... but, then we would all be perfect and this world would be so boring!

Plus, the teaching of The Great FSM tells us Pastafarians that:
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, cognac in one hand, cigar in the other, your body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming: "Woo hoo! What a ride!".

Last edited by Luc P; 08.02.2011 at 15:34. Reason: sp
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  #273  
Old 08.02.2011, 14:41
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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99% of the people that practice medium/high risk sports in Switzerland buy coverage from REGA (or similar)... That takes care of rescue costs, and anything else that the Employers Accident Insurance is not... Personal Insurance comes in play only after the aforementioned.
Hmm, no, EVERYONE who contributes pays. On average, one of those sessions of picking up with the helicopter, bringing to the hospital (if applicable) and so on tots up to around ten grand. The minimum contribution per annum is only CHF 30, so thankfully even some people who rarely are at risk buy REGA coverage. Also, I really can't stand the "well, I'm insured, so what the hell..." attitude.
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  #274  
Old 08.02.2011, 14:46
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Ok, back to cigarettes - if you want to express your freedom, do so by voting, discussing philosophy and making conscious choices in positive aspects, not by increasing the profits of the tobacco companies.
I agree then should we line the pockets of pharmacuetical companies who gain the most out of patches, drugs and smoking cessation products? These also fund a great deal of the anti smoking organisations for very good reason. Imagine if all the smokers started to give up how much money could they make?

Technically smokers pay tax, tobacco companies pay tax and that tax goes into government coffers to use as they please. No one pays for the damage or cost to the healthcare system when someone decides to shove their faces full of KFC.

I'd love to see a government give these options to smokers to give up for free, but it's not going to happen. Would you be willing to pick up the shortfall in tax due to everyone giving up?

Lets say 25% of the population of CH smoke, lets say that a pack of cigarettes is 7 chf, lets say 5chf of that is tax and the average person smokes one packet every x2 days.

2.5chf x 7 = 17.5 chf per week for one smoker in tax
17.5 x 52 = 910 chf per year

Switzerland has about 8m people so 2m smoke perhaps.

That's a staggering 1,820,000,000 CHF in tax.

Play around all you like with the figures trying combinations, regardless that's a huge amount of zeroes. That's just the tax on smokers buying the product without the corporation tax the tobacco companies pay.

It's a multiple hit, they lose the tax from individuals and tobacco companies and governments end up paying pharmacuetical companies for their products. Additionally your pension fund contributions have to rise to meet the shortfall due to everyone living to a hundred. The older a person becomes the more expensive their healthcare. So we have the hit of healthcare costs which will hit everyone.

So next time you see a smoker think these guys are subsidising government tax, pensions and healthcare while destroying their own health. In fact they are doing you a favour. They're an idiot for not realising this, or perhaps they don't care that is their choice.

A smoker has the right to excercise a legal pasttime, you have no right to tell these people to stop smoking, as much as I have to stop you from drinking alcohol, eating McDonalds or having 15 children.

If you don't like this create a petition and get it "banned." Then again we all know what happens with prohibition it just doesn't work.

Accept in life people will make different choices and you will not agree with everyone and no matter how much you disagree or bitch on a thread it's not going to change for the very reasons above.

Unless the anti-smoking facists put their fingers in their own pockets and pay for it, which some how I very much doubt.
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Old 08.02.2011, 14:58
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

My point is that I just don't understand how harming yourself and others is a "freedom" issue. There are other, more important things. For example, many people frown on assisted suicide, saying it's wrong, yadda yadda. But how is doing things that kill you (and in some cases others around you) long term any better? I am well aware of the smokers' contribution to the AHV ect., but I still don't feel that I should have to put up with second hand smoke (any more than I want to see grossly overweight people in miniskirts but at least I can just look away) everywhere. People lighting up on mountain tops next to people who sometimes have to go up there because it's the only place they can breathe properly. People actually being offended when you ask them not to smoke in your apartment. Your freedom stops where mine starts.
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Old 08.02.2011, 14:59
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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I'd love to see a government give these options to smokers to give up for free, but it's not going to happen. Would you be willing to pick up the shortfall in tax due to everyone giving up?
They recently had this debate in Singapore, wondering if it would be better to ban smoking completely in the country....the government then told them that they would have to put up personal taxes by a couple of percent to cover the shortfall in taxes...you can imagine the outcome.
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  #277  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:02
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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but I still don't feel that I should have to put up with second hand smoke
You don't have to put up with second hand smoke. Would you prefer that somebody was offended by you asking them not to pass thier smoke on, or would you prefer clean lungs.
Both smokers and non-smokers need to live in this country, so until that changes, I guess both sides are just going to have to put a little extra effort into things to make sure we all get along.
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  #278  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:04
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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Hmm, no, EVERYONE who contributes pays. On average, one of those sessions of picking up with the helicopter, bringing to the hospital (if applicable) and so on tots up to around ten grand. The minimum contribution per annum is only CHF 30, so thankfully even some people who rarely are at risk buy REGA coverage.
Obviously, it is working just fine for REGA... otherwise, the mandatory individual contribution would be way higher... the volume of memberships sold, plus the voluntary/charitable donations are enough to cover the Z-llion CHF rescue bill for getting a BASEer's (and smoker!) a$$ out of a tree!


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Also, I really can't stand the "well, I'm insured, so what the hell..." attitude.
... well, neither do I. Risky sports + the attitude above = Stupidity (and early death)
But, that's not how most people that practice them think...
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Old 08.02.2011, 15:05
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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You don't have to put up with second hand smoke. Would you prefer that somebody was offended by you asking them not to pass thier smoke on, or would you prefer clean lungs.
Both smokers and non-smokers need to live in this country, so until that changes, I guess both sides are just going to have to put a little extra effort into things to make sure we all get along.
It's cute, but it won't happen.

Read some pages back and see what happen when someone say somethings about those who are the inconsiderate smokers...
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Old 08.02.2011, 15:07
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Re: Smoking on the train platforms.uughh

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A smoker has the right to excercise a legal pasttime, you have no right to tell these people to stop smoking, as much as I have to stop you from drinking alcohol, eating McDonalds or having 15 children.
The woman I saw last year standing chain smoking in the middle of the toddlers paddling pool full of toddlers at the local Badi was exercising her right to enjoy a legal past-time.

That's why I didn't say anything.

If I see her doing it this year she's getting a dunking. And screw her rights.
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