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  #201  
Old 05.05.2011, 18:49
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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The Knie Clan seems to have parts of their Circus animals in that Rappi Zoo though which is actually quite a good solution.
Ok, this I can't get behind. Animals are delicious, yes, but they should be kept in one piece while they are alive.
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  #202  
Old 05.05.2011, 18:50
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I bet he outsizes you in every aspect!
Er, probably - he's an elephant.
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  #203  
Old 05.05.2011, 18:50
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

OSueco, I don't get whether your hangup is with a) the Knie Circus and their treatment of animals; b) treatment of animals by any/all circuses; or c) animal cruelty of any type.

Also, please make a note to avoid attending the rodeo if you travel to the other side of the pond. You would hate it.
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  #204  
Old 05.05.2011, 18:54
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

The video was also in LeMatin, poor kitties.

I assume the video about the cages is legit else Knie would have taken action against it:

http://translate.google.com/translat...t-battu-333683
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  #205  
Old 05.05.2011, 18:59
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Ok, this I can't get behind. Animals are delicious, yes, but they should be kept in one piece while they are alive.

oh quelle horreur!

merci sharks!
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  #206  
Old 05.05.2011, 19:17
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Boy! That guy is so sexy... what was the topic again?
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  #207  
Old 05.05.2011, 20:19
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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elephants are actually quite smart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_intelligence

I bet he outsizes you in every aspect!
Now we have a contest Mine is,oh never mind
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  #208  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:00
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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OSueco, I don't get whether your hangup is with a) the Knie Circus and their treatment of animals; b) treatment of animals by any/all circuses; or c) animal cruelty of any type.

Also, please make a note to avoid attending the rodeo if you travel to the other side of the pond. You would hate it.
I have to admit Knie is probably one of the less horrible circuses out there, although I would never find it acceptable to keep and train wild animals for our entertainment...

And Swiss Animal Protection wrote a report (see post 25), although they gave good notes to Circus Knie, the report mentioned that the trainer physically punished the animals when they refused doing their bids...

It probably very difficult to stop all cruelty to animals, but taking a wild animal from its natural environment to a place where it just is brought up to please us...

the animals suffers in general a great deal of stress, especially elephants which are very sensitive animals, I see no point in it all...

Yes I know, what I have written sound extreme to "you" here on EF...sorry for that, I didn't know that it was such a personal issue for "you"...

Sweet dreams and have fun at the circus...
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  #209  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:10
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Oh dear i feel so bad now. I trained my dog to do tricks for my entertainment. Perhaps it would have been better to left it in that box it was abandoned in as a puppy...
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  #210  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:34
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Oh dear i feel so bad now. I trained my dog to do tricks for my entertainment. Perhaps it would have been better to left it in that box it was abandoned in as a puppy...
Yeah, I keep a homeless guy locked up in my cellar for scientific experiements. He was almost dead of starvation when I found him; maybe I should just throw him back on the streets to die.

i.e. I don't think your argument, which is basically ... as long as I treat something less bad than the situation it was in before, then I'm all good ... is a valid one.
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  #211  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:38
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I have to admit Knie is probably one of the less horrible circuses out there, although I would never find it acceptable to keep and train wild animals for our entertainment...

And Swiss Animal Protection wrote a report (see post 25), although they gave good notes to Circus Knie, the report mentioned that the trainer physically punished the animals when they refused doing their bids...

It probably very difficult to stop all cruelty to animals, but taking a wild animal from its natural environment to a place where it just is brought up to please us...
I do find your views hypocritical.

You apply human standards for animals, in terms of imposing human standards on the treatment of animals. Now, I am not saying that we should treat animals inhumanly, but it is, IMO, an error to assume that animal needs and treatment should be the same as or indeed equate human needs and treatment.

If you are going to apply such standards, then you should, by rights be a vegetarian. After all, all animals in captivity were once wild.

Yet, you have specifically said that you are not.

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...the animals suffers in general a great deal of stress, especially elephants which are very sensitive animals, I see no point in it all...
Are you suggesting that animals in the wild are never stressed?

How do you know that this "great deal" is greater than the stress of being hunted in the wild, dieing of thirst or being shot by poachers?

That you see no point at all in it, is absolutely OK. However, your arguments remain rooted in projecting your, i.e. human, emotions onto an animal. Ironically enough, one might suggest that you are abusing their rights...

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...you started the thread commenting very specifically on the Knie circus and its alleged mistreatment...
Lest we forget, OSueco did not start the thread.
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  #212  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:46
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Yeah, I keep a homeless guy locked up in my cellar for scientific experiements. He was almost dead of starvation when I found him; maybe I should just throw him back on the streets to die.

i.e. I don't think your argument, which is basically ... as long as I treat something less bad than the situation it was in before, then I'm all good ... is a valid one.
Its not an argument. Its an ironic comment
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  #213  
Old 05.05.2011, 21:56
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Its not an argument. Its an ironic comment
Ohhhhhhhh. One of those. Damn.
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  #214  
Old 05.05.2011, 22:30
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Lest we forget, OSueco did not start the thread.
Yes, I realized this and deleted the comment indicating such, replacing it with this post.

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Yes I know, what I have written sound extreme to "you" here on EF...sorry for that, I didn't know that it was such a personal issue for "you"...

Sweet dreams and have fun at the circus...
I am not sure what you mean as I did not give any indication of my personal views on the issue, nor did I say I thought your posts were extreme. I only mean to point out that the OP started the thread specifically referencing the Knie Circus and its alleged mistreatment of animals. After several posts/citations countering the OP's allegation, rather than offer specific evidence of the cruelty of Knie, you then began commenting upon other circuses, circuses in general, and animal cruelty in general (fur/bullfighting).

I think that we can all agree that animal cruelty is reprehensible. Clearly you are very passionate about it, and my comment about the rodeo in the US still stands as I assume you would not want to see calves roped and bulls ridden while their testicles were strung up in order to make them buck higher, all in the name of sport and entertainment.

It is unfortunate that the message of people such as yourself is lost when you are unwilling to engage in legitimate debate, and when you completely ignore that there may be a valid middle ground. I wonder if any of the medicines, lotions, hair products, etc. that you are currently using were tested on animals? The "animal cruelty" line is not quite as clear when you are talking about foods, products or medicines you give to your baby, and I can guarantee that much more horrid abuses go on at research facilities compared to the training of animals for circus performances.

I will sleep very well tonight, thank you very much.
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  #215  
Old 05.05.2011, 22:42
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

1 or lots of wrongs do not make a right. The training of animals in some circuses involves incredibly cruel practices, electric shock, etc.
Knie however, has very high training and welfare standards by comparison. For me, it still does not make it right - and I won't be attending any of their shows. However I feel that there are much worse animal issues to deal with- and a fight against some of the appalling circuses traveling around Europe would be more appropriate.

Last edited by Odile; 05.05.2011 at 23:11.
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  #216  
Old 06.05.2011, 02:06
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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she was born & raised there, and yes she quit...
as you say her whole life, you mean she quit upon retirement
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Old 06.05.2011, 02:20
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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the abuse itself starts with keeping e.g. wild animals chained up 24/7 in a lorry...do I need to say more? If you think that is ok, it's up to you, but for me it's not really acceptable...

verifiable evidence? welcome to EF! Still nobody could give me a link to prove that wild animals are not doing well in that environment...*bravo* I applaud thee...
A) they are NOT "chained up 24/7 in a lorry"
B) all zoo directors, circus directors and airport directors however DO agree that animal transports are a difficult thing and need lots of organisation and care. I once was in charge with a dog from Zurich to Kuala Lumpur on SABENA via Brussels. Luckily enough, the man at SN found one veterinary in Zurich and one in Brussels who took care. And I once was in charge with four Siamese cats on Thai International to Bangkok. One of the veterinaries out of working hours past midnight went to the airport to look for them. I finally had the owner on the phone, hearing that all four had survived the ordeal very well. The good lady was really happy and I hope so were her most beautiful cats
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  #218  
Old 06.05.2011, 02:45
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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1 or lots of wrongs do not make a right. The training of animals in some circuses involves incredibly cruel practices, electric shock, etc.
Knie however, has very high training and welfare standards by comparison. For me, it still does not make it right - and I won't be attending any of their shows. However I feel that there are much worse animal issues to deal with- and a fight against some of the appalling circuses traveling around Europe would be more appropriate.
Let's be honest about it, the treatment of animals, be it in case of
- house animals
- circus animals
- zoo animals
- wild animals (also here near to us)
for sure IS a problem, and even if great progress has been made
over the past 100 or 200 years, there still is a lot of room for improvement

BUT, what a neighbour of my grandmom practiced with her dog would not be possible in the same place today. The lady, otherwise a nice person, in the early morning left home to work as owner of an optician-shop, having prepared food and water for her dog but only returned after 7pm . The dog was bored to death. One Sunday, our dad took the dog over. Much to our astonishment, after some 5 minutes in which dad became "troop leader" and established his authority (without force ! ) the dog became lively and played with dad, and after an hour had become the "dog-personality" she (named "Lady") really was. Nowadays, Mrs R... would have the "Tierschutz" acting on her ways within a few months. And also the laws have changed. When grandmom enquired in some places about the problem she was told that nothing could be done about such things.

What a very caring master of a black poodle (the grandmom of a schoolfriend) did to her dog was boring him also. One day, a cousin of her came on a visit, and the man took the dog and us two for a walk and then showed and explained the potential of a poodle. AND made it clear to us that the dog ENJOYED many of the plays. After this, we often took "Nano" for a walk, and when we both told him to come, he fairly swiftly realized that things were up for some fun. I am perfectly sure to this day that he really DID enjoy those things, as well as we were !
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  #219  
Old 06.05.2011, 08:58
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

I think Osueco's position that circuses are not good is a perfectly valid stance, held by not just a few people.

I don't think his/her views are extreme, radical or going against the herd, with great courage and determination. Rather, the arguments are poorly presented, irrational, libellous, incoherent, not backed with real evidence, try to appeal at an emotional level (and fail), and, frankly, are a bit silly.

hth
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  #220  
Old 06.05.2011, 09:30
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I think Osueco's position that circuses are not good is a perfectly valid stance, held by not just a few people.

I don't think his/her views are extreme, radical or going against the herd, with great courage and determination. Rather, the arguments are poorly presented, irrational, libellous, incoherent, not backed with real evidence, try to appeal at an emotional level (and fail), and, frankly, are a bit silly.

hth
Real evidence? "your side" referred to a report by STS which was suppose to claim that Circus Knie don't beat animals. I red the report, and it clearly said that Circus Knie beat animals when they are not obeying. The circuses were audited, and I hope you know what an audit means (no there are no spontaneous audits)....

Secondly, I believe that it's not possible to train a wild animals with candy. This is also stated in the links which I posted...

Third, I don't believe that taking a wild baby animal from it's natural environment to do tricks for our bidding is a disgrace. This is a moral point of view, didn't think you needed "evidence" for that...

Last, there are many report saying that a wild animal held in captivity although maybe not physically abused, fare very bad mentally due to the stress in its new environment. (That's why animals in e.g. Zoos all of a sudden just die, the can't coop with the new environment)

Many of the links included statements from people who has long time experience with circuses incl. one with Knie.

For me it's all pretty much common sense on a level which even my 6 years comprehended...

I came to the conclusion, that most you do NOT even read your own "proves" and to a very less extent others, which means that you have already made up your mind about this topic....

When you fail to say to something liable you turn to name calling and things like "GTFO", so I wonder who really failed here?

Nice "discussing" with you...
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