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  #241  
Old 16.05.2015, 15:29
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I quite enjoyed going to the circus...then I read this book a couple of weeks ago. I think everyone involved in this debate should read it for good measure then continue the discussion afterwards:


http://theoneandonlyivan.com/
I suggest you also read this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Animals-Circ...s+and+circuses

Dr Kiley-Worthington's report has been used as the basis to improve animal care in both zoos and circuses for many years now. The report was commissioned by the RSPCA who, unsurprisingly, decided not to publish it because it didn't say what they wanted it to say.

And do you realise there are more wild animals in private hands in the States than there are in all the zoos there? No regulation either on how they should be looked after and no need for a wild life licence to be able to own them in the first place.

gata, there's nothing up yet, but you can check via their website:

http://www.knie.ch/cirque/

I'm pretty sure they have posted details in the past.

I've been to Knie and also Circus Nock for that matter for many years and never yet seen a horse struck in the face with a whip. Do you really think that you can force a 7,000kg elephant to obey you using a stick if they don't want to? Or half a ton of horse for that matter. If they set their minds against it, nothing will shift them. I've even seen the occasional event at Knie where the horses didn't want to perform and simply made their way out of the ring. Were they struck? No. Freddy Jnr simply finished up the act as quickly as he could and that was it. I've seen the same happen with Robbie Gasser's sealions. If they don't want to perform, they won't.
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  #242  
Old 16.05.2015, 15:58
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Right... a work of fiction, anthropomorphising animals, inspired by a gorilla that was maltreated in a shopping mall. Yep - that's really relevant to Knie.


The circus is meant to appeal to the child within you...so does this book. The relevance is what you make it, that's all. Have you actually read it or just the synopsis?
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  #243  
Old 16.05.2015, 16:04
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I suggest you also read this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Animals-Circ...s+and+circuses

Dr Kiley-Worthington's report has been used as the basis to improve animal care in both zoos and circuses for many years now. The report was commissioned by the RSPCA who, unsurprisingly, decided not to publish it because it didn't say what they wanted it to say.

And do you realise there are more wild animals in private hands in the States than there are in all the zoos there? No regulation either on how they should be looked after and no need for a wild life licence to be able to own them in the first place.

gata, there's nothing up yet, but you can check via their website:

http://www.knie.ch/cirque/

I'm pretty sure they have posted details in the past.

I've been to Knie and also Circus Nock for that matter for many years and never yet seen a horse struck in the face with a whip. Do you really think that you can force a 7,000kg elephant to obey you using a stick if they don't want to? Or half a ton of horse for that matter. If they set their minds against it, nothing will shift them. I've even seen the occasional event at Knie where the horses didn't want to perform and simply made their way out of the ring. Were they struck? No. Freddy Jnr simply finished up the act as quickly as he could and that was it. I've seen the same happen with Robbie Gasser's sealions. If they don't want to perform, they won't.


And the book clearly distinguishes between privately owned wild animals living in unregulated conditions and "wild parks" that are in a different league altogether. I have seen animals get appalling treatment in small dodgy circuses in France and I have been to Knie Circus and did not get this impression. I guess Switzerland has tighter controls.
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  #244  
Old 17.05.2015, 14:17
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Gata, i don't know the Elephant walk date for this year, but shall keep an eye on whatever website to find out when.

It really is a sight to see!! And a sort of Geneva tradition.

They did stop it for a few years after one went AWOL in Zurich!!

Lots of people love circuses and zoos because it is the only way they can see wild animals up close.

And i love all animals, if i even heard or read that the animals in the Knie were being mistreated i would be one of the first to shout and rage about it.

Worst things are happening in Asia - perhaps concerned people should focus more there than here. Being tickled on the back of the neck by a baby elephant in Bangkok both mesmerised me and shocked me at the same time.
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  #245  
Old 17.05.2015, 14:29
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Not only Asia, Patsycat. You only have to look at the www.horseandhound.co.uk website to see how many horses are being dumped or injured by uncaring and callous people in the UK. There was a mare found dead by the roadside the other day who had been in the middle of labour. Body had been dragged from wherever she died and dumped. The foal's front feet were sticking out of the birth passage. Another horse was attacked in its field overnight and a sharp stick embedded in its birth passage. It was lucky it didn't hit an artery and kill her. There are frequently reports of such incidents.
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  #246  
Old 17.05.2015, 15:04
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Fans of Viz comic will enjoy this slightly NSFW circus related strip. Thanks Viz.


A Circus is inherently weird. Spectacle without the need for culture.
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  #247  
Old 17.05.2015, 15:08
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Fans of Viz comic will enjoy this slightly NSFW circus related strip. Thanks Viz.


A Circus is inherently weird. Spectacle without the need for culture.
Define culture in this context.
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  #248  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:21
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Re: Knie... barbaric

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Have you -- personally -- ever actually seen any of those things happening at a Knie Circus show or training session? Or was it a friend of a mate who saw it all?
Have you ever seen the show yourself? i went with group and all of us were disgusted.... everyone is so focussed on teh show they dont look around them and see what else is going on around the ring side..... anyone who supports them and their traditional family entertainment is sick...
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  #249  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:28
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

The people who support kniw are probably the same sort that think fox hunting is normal, and that animals are stupid and beneath us....

elephants are fantastic animals..... how can anyone see them in zurich in their small enclosure when not performing with all the traffic and building work noise and think 'this is normal - what a great life they have'
next time one of you goes look around you and stop being blinded by all the lights ........take a look at the guy standing there with the sharp hook on the end of a stick next to the elephants ....

when the horses perform look around the ring circle and see all the people darted around the circle with whips in their hands.... and what they do when a horse takes a small step forward out of position....

idiots....
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  #250  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:30
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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... If they don't want to perform, they won't.
Bloomin' prima-donnas. No sense of professionalism...
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  #251  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:36
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

If you had looked at the show as focusely as you pretend, you'd have noticed that the horses are never, absolutely never, hit by the whip. The whip is used to hit the floor, the noise indicating to the horse where he must go and at which rythm. It's very much like a clicker for dogs.

And the hook used on the elephants are not there to hurt them either. An elephant's skin is very very thick, and there's no way a blunt hook like what they use could hurt an animal. Moroever they don't use the hook to hit the animals, but to give them a little push.

These animals were born in captivity, and wouldn't know how to survive in the wild. They are proud to do their daily shows, as otherwise it wouldn't be possible to force them to work on stage without extreme violence. The shows bring an interesting occupation which they learned to appreciate.

You'll also notice that Knie stopped showing lions and tigers almost 10 years ago, as they felt the small enclosures weren't comfortable enough for the animals. This shows that they deeply care for the animals well-being.
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  #252  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:49
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

I for one love animals at the circus - especially that elephant with huge ears that can fly.

That's my absolute favourite
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  #253  
Old 18.05.2015, 11:59
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Well, I am absolutely sure the animals at Knie are looked after 1000x and more better than in many other circuses around the world. As a child, I loved to see the elephants and other animals walk from the railway station to the village square where the circus was erected.

But I also spent much time walking behind the circus- to see the animals in their small cages, tigers and others pacing up and down the small cage, with barely enough space to turn. Yes, well groomed, well fed, not beaten and probably loved by their keepers - but for me, from a very young age- looking behind the scene and the small cages- was enough to put me off and I refused to go to the circus.That was in the 1950s...

Times have changed- and time for the circus to change- and we the public should encourage this. There is, to my mind, no excuse whatsoever for animals in circuses in the 21st century- really- however well they are kept- and even if we agree Knie animals are the best kept in the circus world. So OK, let's not put down those animals if they are healthy- but no more to replace them. Those times are gone, and good riddance.

The training does involve pain, ropes, chains, pokers- and all sorts anyhow- even if there is no evidence of it in the ring. The sheer memory of early pain as youngster being trained is sufficient to prevent a rebellion (most of us will remember Pavlov's dogs ) - but to pretend no pain and humiliation is involved in early training is just plain daft.

Cirque du Soleil will get my custom- the brilliance and talent of humans to entertain other humans willingly is fabulous.
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  #254  
Old 18.05.2015, 12:15
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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The training does involve pain, ropes, chains, pokers- and all sorts anyhow- even if there is no evidence of it in the ring. The sheer memory of early pain as youngster being trained is sufficient to prevent a rebellion (most of us will remember Pavlov's dogs ) - but to pretend no pain and humiliation is involved in early training is just plain daft.
And yet we know that training a dog doesn't necessarily involve any of those things - it can be done with entirely positive methods, from day one.

Why do you believe that horses or elephants are different, and can't be trained without pain/humiliation?
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  #255  
Old 18.05.2015, 15:40
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

If the only chance I will ever get to see an animal would be in captivity, then I choose not to see it. It's not my right as a human to be able to see on demand, animals that have no place in my part of the world, simply for my pleasure. And as far as I can see it, that's what it boils down to, humans thinking their curiosity should be sated at the expense of other species.

I accept that there are many wonders on this planet that my eyes will never behold. I'm cool with that, it's why god invented large screen 3d hd tv.

Here's a lion that should have had a better life.

http://holykaw.alltop.com/liberated-...is-grass-video
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  #256  
Old 18.05.2015, 15:55
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Even if they are treated well, to me animals don't belong in cages.

Yes, they were born in captivity and probably wouldn't exist otherwise, but they were made for human entertainment and I think there is something obscene in that.
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  #257  
Old 18.05.2015, 16:51
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Even if they are treated well, to me animals don't belong in cages.

Yes, they were born in captivity and probably wouldn't exist otherwise, but they were made for human entertainment and I think there is something obscene in that.
So no bird pets for you then? Or is it okay when it's an animal you own? Guess we should let all those parakeets, cockateels, etc, fly free and die in the wild because they can't survive here in Europe. Not to mention dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc. What about police and rescue dogs? Army sniffer dogs? Is that okay because they are doing a "job" and not just entertaining you? Frankly I find asking them to put their lives at risk on our behalf fairly obscene myself.
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Old 18.05.2015, 17:03
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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So no bird pets for you then? Or is it okay when it's an animal you own? Guess we should let all those parakeets, cockateels, etc, fly free and die in the wild because they can't survive here in Europe. Not to mention dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc. What about police and rescue dogs? Army sniffer dogs? Is that okay because they are doing a "job" and not just entertaining you? Frankly I find asking them to put their lives at risk on our behalf fairly obscene myself.
Since you are being specific

No, no bird pets for me. The belong in the wild, not in a cage. Of course you can't set those in captivity free, they don't know how to fend for themselves. I just wish that no more birds were born in captivity for our enjoyment.

As for cats, dogs, horses, cows, etc. those (most) aren't kept in cages, are they.
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Old 18.05.2015, 17:07
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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As for cats, dogs, horses, cows, etc. those (most) aren't kept in cages, are they.
Apartments, houses, paddocks, stables, fields.....
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Old 18.05.2015, 17:10
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Apartments, houses, paddocks, stables, fields.....
...fields, villages, mountains, counties, regions, countries, continents, planets...

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