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  #161  
Old 05.05.2011, 15:19
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Have a good look it the eyes of this hippo
It looks like he's thinking,"I'll count to three, and if these mofos are still bugging me I'll pop their heads open like cantaloupes".
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  #162  
Old 05.05.2011, 15:30
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

I used to work in a circus that didn't use whips or cruel methods to train the animals. In following that decision, the tiger trainer (One-Armed-Jake to his chums) ended up living out his days insisting that Tiddles didn't mean it.

We ditched the elephants walking on 2 legs for chickens walking on 2 legs. The audience figures indicated this wasn't a huge success. We tried to track down the elephants to reinstate them - but all we could find were 3 front legs and 6 umbrellas.

Doris, the bareback horse-rider also lost her job - she ended up going bareback in her new job - she died in an AIDS support centre in 2003.

There is no much pain a clown can take before the job gets to them!

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  #163  
Old 05.05.2011, 15:31
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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2. I do not believe it's possible to train wild animals with a sugar cube (i.e. stick and whipless)
Just had to pick up on this:

Wild animals in zoos and other captivity situations are often trained using positive reward based techniques - in fact, the classic clicker-training (a form of operant conditioning) that is standard in positive dog training was first developed for use with dolphins. Many zoo trainers are now using these techniques, proving that the old ideas of using force and punishment are as obsolete with wild animals as they are with domesticated ones.

All kinds of animals have been successfully clicker-trained, from horses to chickens, to lions, to warthogs.

Here are articles by Karen Pryor, the founder of the 'clicker movement' and well known force-free animal training advocate, on the use of operant conditioning in the Dallas and Niabi Zoos:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/124

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2466

It should be pointed out that training is used not just for teaching tricks to entertain humans - the animals discussed here were being trained to accept handling in order to give needed medical care. Training also provides an opportunity for necessary mental stimulation and social contact.
---

To Chomer and Osueco:

I understand your philosophical objection to circuses. But look at the reactions you have garnered here, including reactions from animal lovers and those who are already involved in animal welfare work. Do you see how this approach may not be the best way to advocate for the animals?

I applaud your passion, but would urge caution in the approach you are taking. Extremism has certainly done more harm to animal welfare causes than good. Over-generalized protest actions have had little effect, other than to alienate potential supporters.

Change is often best reached through a level-headed, practical approach. So for the animals' sake, research specific cases and proceed from fact and evidence, rather than emotion. For the animals' sake.
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  #164  
Old 05.05.2011, 15:38
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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I used to work in a circus that didn't use whips or cruel methods to train the animals. In following that decision, the tiger trainer (One-Armed-Jake to his chums) ended up living out his days insisting that Tiddles didn't mean it.

We ditched the elephants walking on 2 legs for chickens walking on 2 legs. The audience figures indicated this wasn't a huge success. We tried to track down the elephants to reinstate them - but all we could find were 3 front legs and 6 umbrellas.

Doris, the bareback horse-rider also lost her job - she ended up going bareback in her new job - she died in an AIDS support centre in 2003.

There is no much pain a clown can take before the job gets to them!

Oh dear....*wipeeyes*
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  #165  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:39
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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So, basically, you're making an accusation of animal abuse without any verifiable evidence in hand, is that where we're at?
the abuse itself starts with keeping e.g. wild animals chained up 24/7 in a lorry...do I need to say more? If you think that is ok, it's up to you, but for me it's not really acceptable...

verifiable evidence? welcome to EF! Still nobody could give me a link to prove that wild animals are not doing well in that environment...*bravo* I applaud thee...
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  #166  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:41
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

So you ant the EF to give you proof that animals Are not doing well in all circus, while you claim that they are being mistreated in the one circus?

the Onus is on you to prove that they are being mistreated.
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  #167  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:47
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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So you ant the EF to give you proof that animals Are not doing well in all circus, while you claim that they are being mistreated in the one circus?

the Onus is on you to prove that they are being mistreated.
I am EF too? or?

I sent several links where circus animals were mistreated, it exists...we all know it....

so let me ask you this, how are you so sure that e.g. Knie is not beating their animals? How do you know?
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  #168  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:48
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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so let me ask you this, how are you so sure that e.g. Knie is not beating their animals? How do you know?
How do I know that you don't beat your wife?

Same logic applies.

Tom
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Old 05.05.2011, 16:49
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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so let me ask you this, how are you so sure that e.g. Knie is not beating their animals? How do you know?
We don't do negative propositions.. either you present evidence

or


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  #170  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:54
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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How do I know that you don't beat your wife?

Same logic applies.

Tom
I heard that OSueco raped and murdered a girl in 1990 then buried her body in the woods. I have yet to see a report that says otherwise.





For anyone who doesn't get the reference
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  #171  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:56
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Just had to pick up on this:

Wild animals in zoos and other captivity situations are often trained using positive reward based techniques - in fact, the classic clicker-training (a form of operant conditioning) that is standard in positive dog training was first developed for use with dolphins. Many zoo trainers are now using these techniques, proving that the old ideas of using force and punishment are as obsolete with wild animals as they are with domesticated ones.

All kinds of animals have been successfully clicker-trained, from horses to chickens, to lions, to warthogs.

Here are articles by Karen Pryor, the founder of the 'clicker movement' and well known force-free animal training advocate, on the use of operant conditioning in the Dallas and Niabi Zoos:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/124

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2466

It should be pointed out that training is used not just for teaching tricks to entertain humans - the animals discussed here were being trained to accept handling in order to give needed medical care. Training also provides an opportunity for necessary mental stimulation and social contact.
---

To Chomer and Osueco:

I understand your philosophical objection to circuses. But look at the reactions you have garnered here, including reactions from animal lovers and those who are already involved in animal welfare work. Do you see how this approach may not be the best way to advocate for the animals?

I applaud your passion, but would urge caution in the approach you are taking. Extremism has certainly done more harm to animal welfare causes than good. Over-generalized protest actions have had little effect, other than to alienate potential supporters.

Change is often best reached through a level-headed, practical approach. So for the animals' sake, research specific cases and proceed from fact and evidence, rather than emotion. For the animals' sake.
Once again, Im not here to convince people, it's a forum...people can think what they want without name calling like "tard"...

Just because I don't want wild animals to spend their life chained in a lorry makes me an extremist? Wow, the limit got very low...

In UK they beat that old elephant Annie, and had it all on film, is that an evidence in your eyes?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ircus-elephant

This things will still be popping up...
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  #172  
Old 05.05.2011, 16:59
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

The Knie elephants used to walk from the train station down to Plainpalais when the circus came to town in Geneva.

I don't know if they still do that. Also you can go and visit the animals during the day. The looks on kids' faces is priceless!!

I haven't actually been to the circus in years, but Knie is revered and respected in Switzerland and one would think that if there was a tiny inkling of cruelty to their animals, all hell would break loose.
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  #173  
Old 05.05.2011, 17:00
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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We don't do negative propositions.. either you present evidence

or


wow you just won the internet forum championship!
I guess when you say "we", is it like a secret EF boys-club?

One evidence: (I guess I can dig up some more, how many do you want?)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ircus-elephant
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  #174  
Old 05.05.2011, 17:03
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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wow you just won the internet forum championship!
I guess when you say "we", is it like a secret EF boys-club?

One evidence: (I guess I can dig up some more, how many do you want?)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ircus-elephant
so it's the Bobby Roberts Super Circus , right? Close it down.
also:


a) how does in anyways extend to all the circus enought to make it a general case?
b) how does in any way link to Knie?
c) you still fail
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  #175  
Old 05.05.2011, 17:04
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

/\ /\ /\ What he said


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wow you just won the internet forum championship!
I guess when you say "we", is it like a secret EF boys-club?

One evidence: (I guess I can dig up some more, how many do you want?)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ircus-elephant
There's nothing Boy's club about it. You are being called out after making a libelous statement about Knie Circus, accusing them of cruelty.

Back your statement up with evidence that Knie Circus is abusing animals, or, as Ouchboy so eloquently put it, GTFO.
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Old 05.05.2011, 17:06
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Another interesting article:
http://www.iridescent-publishing.com/rtm/ch2p4.htm

Please read the links before coming with more evidences comments,
just that wild animals are at the circus is evidence enough for mistreatment, read the article above then you will understand...
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  #177  
Old 05.05.2011, 17:08
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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so let me ask you this, how are you so sure that e.g. Knie is not beating their animals? How do you know?
Please read the beginning of the thread again, with particular attention to post #25.

Swiss authorities investigated, didn't find evidence of any animal cruelty being practiced by Zirkus Knie.

If you think there is some evidence, very well, let's have it.

If you think there is no evidence but that there is animal cruelty going on there anyway (and we know that there is because, well, because!) I suppose there's no use arguing with you.

[I saw a Labrador being taken for a walk along the Limmat yesterday. As I passed it looked up at me with such terrible, sorrowful brown eyes. I am sure it is being mistreated and held on that horrid leash against its will. The desire for freedom resides in every canine heart. And that desire cannot be contained forever by prison walls, or martial laws, or... ah, forget it.]
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Old 05.05.2011, 17:19
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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cute...learned a new abbreviation?

yes having an elephant chained his whole life is for me quite cruel...but hey we have all different point of view when it comes to cruelness..

Once again:
Http://www.iridescent-publishing.com/rtm/ch2p4.htm
GTFO, STFU, HTFU, QYWB, OMGWTFBBQ. Yeah, i know a few abbreviations.

Your idea of cruel is irrelevant. It is precisely because these things are not objective that standards have been developed. There are people who dedicate their careers to making sure that animal welfare regulations are enforced. They make the call on whether a person, group or company is breaking those regulations and committing acts of animal cruelty. Not you.

Now if you suspect that Knie is abusing animals, you can call these people, and they will investigate.

As it turns out, people who know a lot more about this issue than you apparently do have already looked into it, and found no evidence of Animal Cruelty. Yet you still assert that Knie is abusing animals, without any proof.


And, for christs sake, please stop with the link spamming. None of your links have proved anything accept that you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes relevant evidence.
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Old 05.05.2011, 17:20
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

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Please read the beginning of the thread again, with particular attention to post #25.

Swiss authorities investigated, didn't find evidence of any animal cruelty being practiced by Zirkus Knie.

If you think there is some evidence, very well, let's have it.

If you think there is no evidence but that there is animal cruelty going on there anyway (and we know that there is because, well, because!) I suppose there's no use arguing with you.

[I saw a Labrador being taken for a walk along the Limmat yesterday. As I passed it looked up at me with such terrible, sorrowful brown eyes. I am sure it is being mistreated and held on that horrid leash against its will. The desire for freedom resides in every canine heart. And that desire cannot be contained forever by prison walls, or martial laws, or... ah, forget it.]
However, there is an argument to say that keeping a wild animal at all, is cruelty in and of itself. While I'm sure the Swiss office of pencil sharpening has given a circus a golden stamp of approval, I'm not sure that means much. Just because someone says something, doesn't make it true (although it might make it legal). Some might say making a lion jump through a hoop is cruel however it's done. That Labrador you saw has been bred for a couple of thousand years to be "man's best friend". One cannot say the same of an African elephant.
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Old 05.05.2011, 17:31
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Re: Please help get knie to stop using animals

Ah, Bobby Roberts. I was waiting for you to get to that one.

So, the circus hires someone to look after their elephant, who is retired, and for whom they've been looking for a decent home for a while. The hired hand turns out to be an animal abuser. As soon as his actions became public, he legged it. No action has been brought against the circus by the RSPCA or the police.

What really galls me about this incident, is that the animal rightists took footage of the abuse this animal went through at the hands of his keeper, for three weeks, before they went public. (Edit: it was a further month before they went public)

Yes. It was an appalling incident. No, it does not back up your argument (such as it is) that all circuses are hot-houses of cruelty.
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