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Old 19.11.2011, 16:32
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Take this seriously then!

From cancerresearch.org

In Britain in 1948, when surveys of smoking began, smoking was extremely prevalent among men: 82% smoked some form of tobacco and 65% were cigarette smokers. By 1970, the percentage of cigarette smokers had fallen to 55%. From the 1970s onwards, smoking prevalence fell rapidly until the mid-1990s. Since then the rate has continued to fall slowly and in 2007 around a fifth (22%) of men (aged 16 and over) were reported as cigarette smokers. Since 2007, the rate has remained stable ( Figure 6.1). By 2007, the percentage of women who smoke decreased to 20%. In 2008, it increased to 21%, and the difference in smoking prevalence between men and women in Britain was not significant. Female smoking prevalence fell to 20% in 2009, slightly lower than male prevalence in that year

From www.swissinfo.ch
According to the study commissioned by the Federal Health Office, 27 per cent of the Swiss population aged 14-65 were smokers in 2009, the same percentage as in 2008, and a slight drop from the 33 per cent in 2001.

“The tendency to smoke is going down, so we are very glad about this because smoking is one of the main risk factors for a number of chronic diseases and premature death,” Ruth Hagen, spokeswoman for Addiction Info Switzerland, told swissinfo.ch.

However, the number of 20 to 24-year-olds who smoke on a daily basis is on the rise; it went up three per cent from 2008 to 2009.

In that age group, 28 per cent smoke daily, with another 11 per cent lighting up regularly – meaning that 39 per cent of Swiss people in their early 20s smoke.

So 28% of the Swiss population compared 21.5% of the British seems to back my point up. My exposure in Switzerland through bar managing for 11 years had me thinking the percentage was even higher (Percentage of people smoking in üsgang is of course higher) however those facts still confirm my views.
Alright, my last visit to the U.K. was in 2000, when it possibly was still around 28% . 28% of course is higher than 21% but both figures, the 28% and the 39% refer to "that age group" which is the age group most heavily addicted, with particularily some 88% of all women of that "group" smoking

If you however see that in countries like Switzerland, Germany, Benelux and Northern France, the share of smokers within half a century dropped from around 60% to less than 30%, this IS progress !

My concern rather is that their share might rise again, not least as quite many girls see smoking as "emancipation" and as quite many nice terraces are occupied by smokers

My experiences on visits to Britain between 1972 and 2000 were that pubs were generally filled with smoke to an extent not even to be seen in Italy or Greece !

55% in 1971 or 72 is a figure for the believers and so I have to tell you that I take your statistics with a grain of doubt. I have it with Winston Churchill and only believe in statistics I did forge myself
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  #302  
Old 19.11.2011, 16:46
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Alright, my last visit to the U.K. was in 2000, when it possibly was still around 28% . 28% of course is higher than 21% but both figures, the 28% and the 39% refer to "that age group" which is the age group most heavily addicted, with particularily some 88% of all women of that "group" smoking

If you however see that in countries like Switzerland, Germany, Benelux and Northern France, the share of smokers within half a century dropped from around 60% to less than 30%, this IS progress !

My concern rather is that their share might rise again, not least as quite many girls see smoking as "emancipation" and as quite many nice terraces are occupied by smokers

My experiences on visits to Britain between 1972 and 2000 were that pubs were generally filled with smoke to an extent not even to be seen in Italy or Greece !

55% in 1971 or 72 is a figure for the believers and so I have to tell you that I take your statistics with a grain of doubt. I have it with Winston Churchill and only believe in statistics I did forge myself
Thanks for that. You are right, it is huge step forward. I can't imagine how bad it would be if 60% of the population smoked.

BTW, your observations about the Pubs in the UK may be skewed by variations in architecture and climate. I have noticed that in Italy and southern Europe in general that it is possible to smoke outside throughout most of the year. Not to mention that most restaurants/bars/etc. have their windows and doors open most of the season.
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Old 20.11.2011, 11:51
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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I am very sad that you are amused by the fact that your smoking causes me very real pain in throat tissue irritation and respiratory distress as well as to many other people in the world around you. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean that I and other do.

The narcissism that you display in your response when you mock the suffering of others is quite shocking to a person like myself. You may not realise it, as you are inflicting your "right" on those of us who are very sensitive to smoke, but many of the people who suffer due to your habit are nonetheless champions of your right to smoke any where and any time you like. Just so long as you don't do it anywhere that sensitive people are exposed to it.

Obviously, this attitude isn't reciprocated. You may feel that we are hard on you but it really is painful when we are exposed to smoke. It feels like an actual, physical assault. I would rather have someone slap me in the face than smoke in my presence when I can't control my exposure to said smoke.

Based on your posts you would rather see the sensitives continue to be assaulted in this fashion and you derive pleasure from the act. I find it sad that I am sympathetic to the plight of smokers who want/need a smoke and can't find space to have one and yet many smokers seem to have no concern for those who suffer due to any exposure to the specific organic compounds that are unique to cigarette smoke. Truly, sad.

Good luck and enjoy the world that you are shaping. Because, no matter what I say, your right to smoke, as you currently know it, will probably go away, in time. I am happy to let you do what ever drug you want, because, I would like to keep doing the drugs that I want, ie. caffeine and alcohol.
"the suffering" haha, yeah right

There is no real suffering, just inconvenience. Someone is talking about suffocating above, and this clearly exemplifies my point. Over dramatic people!! You do not "suffocate" in passive smoke and if you do you have other health issues not the fault of a smoker or smokers in general.

If you are truly overly sensitive due to an allergen than that is unfortunate. Everyone with allergies are unfortunate, but most rational sensible people do not expect the world changes for the minority.

There are people allergic to nuts, they have to live with the fact nut traces are found in many set meals at restaurants and therefore there options are limited. They have to check ingredients carefully, an added inconvenience and hindrance in life. Must be frustrating. But are they advocating the complete ban of nuts as it interferes with their life? No, of course not. So behave
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Old 20.11.2011, 16:08
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

is this discussion still going on? great!

here are my two rappens: smoking and smokers in railway stations suck!
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Old 20.11.2011, 17:24
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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"the suffering" haha, yeah right

There is no real suffering, just inconvenience. Someone is talking about suffocating above, and this clearly exemplifies my point. Over dramatic people!! You do not "suffocate" in passive smoke and if you do you have other health issues not the fault of a smoker or smokers in general.

If you are truly overly sensitive due to an allergen than that is unfortunate. Everyone with allergies are unfortunate, but most rational sensible people do not expect the world changes for the minority.

There are people allergic to nuts, they have to live with the fact nut traces are found in many set meals at restaurants and therefore there options are limited. They have to check ingredients carefully, an added inconvenience and hindrance in life. Must be frustrating. But are they advocating the complete ban of nuts as it interferes with their life? No, of course not. So behave
:WTF:
Really????
And I thought that I was a bit strong in my earlier response. Obviously that sentiment was wasted.

You obviously don't understand at all. I do suffer. It is painful. I get sore throats. I suffer from severe headaches and respiratory distress. All from being exposed to second hand smoke, even in very tiny quantities. The fact that you don't suffer from these symptoms doesn't in any way make them less real. We are different and should respect that simple fact and try and show some empathy/understanding.

Your reply indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about and are only concerned with your perceived right to get your fix whenever and where ever you want and don't feel any emotional connection with those that you are affecting. They have a name for these characteristics that you are exhibiting. Wikipedia reference-linkPsychopathy

So are you serious about not caring that your actions cause others distress in a very real physical sense?

The Nut comment is irrelevant because nuts aren't being ground up into powder and dispersed into the air on train platforms. I think you will find that if you went around blowing aspirated nut dust in public spaces that you would find yourself arrested pretty damn quickly.

This is the only way your analogy is valid. Think about it.
It doesn't work that way.

Let me be explicitly clear. I am not asking for a smoking ban in all public areas, as much as I hate it. I am simply asking for smokers to exercise any empathy that they possess and refrain from smoking in areas where the general public cannot avoid second hand consumption. This means bus and train stops/platforms and other similar waiting areas and lines. This especially means around any small children, who might have extremely intolerant parents. After all, why would you put yourself into a position where you know that people are going to be extremely aggravated at you?

You are not going to be allowed to smoke in public if you can't control yourself. It's your life. Good luck with that.
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Old 20.11.2011, 17:33
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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But are they advocating the complete ban of nuts as it interferes with their life? No, of course not. So behave
We don't advocate the complete ban of smoking as such either. So behave.
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Old 21.11.2011, 12:04
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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:WTF:
Really????
And I thought that I was a bit strong in my earlier response. Obviously that sentiment was wasted.

You obviously don't understand at all. I do suffer. It is painful. I get sore throats. I suffer from severe headaches and respiratory distress. All from being exposed to second hand smoke, even in very tiny quantities. The fact that you don't suffer from these symptoms doesn't in any way make them less real. We are different and should respect that simple fact and try and show some empathy/understanding.

Your reply indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about and are only concerned with your perceived right to get your fix whenever and where ever you want and don't feel any emotional connection with those that you are affecting. They have a name for these characteristics that you are exhibiting. Wikipedia reference-linkPsychopathy

So are you serious about not caring that your actions cause others distress in a very real physical sense?

The Nut comment is irrelevant because nuts aren't being ground up into powder and dispersed into the air on train platforms. I think you will find that if you went around blowing aspirated nut dust in public spaces that you would find yourself arrested pretty damn quickly.

This is the only way your analogy is valid. Think about it.
It doesn't work that way.

Let me be explicitly clear. I am not asking for a smoking ban in all public areas, as much as I hate it. I am simply asking for smokers to exercise any empathy that they possess and refrain from smoking in areas where the general public cannot avoid second hand consumption. This means bus and train stops/platforms and other similar waiting areas and lines. This especially means around any small children, who might have extremely intolerant parents. After all, why would you put yourself into a position where you know that people are going to be extremely aggravated at you?

You are not going to be allowed to smoke in public if you can't control yourself. It's your life. Good luck with that.
YTF
Really!
Seems so.
No, I understand very well but I still don't care. As I said, if you suffer like you mention you are a hyper sensitive individual, a minority case. Sadly, that's life. There are growing number of people suffering from EMF, very unfortunate. Unfortunately world leaders have not sanctioned the removal of electrical pilons, cable lines, phone masts etc as, unfortunate as these people are, they are a minority of people.
I am not doubting your symptoms as real, but until they ban smoking at rail stations, if they do, then you'll just have to put up and shut up or hang back if you prefer to avoid it all together.
It is a nice ideology, that everyone thinks twice before anything they do in life, as it may effect someone else but with everyone being different there could never be an equilibrium.
Your reply indicates a deep resentment to smokers as you were born extremely sensitive to it, and thus the world should compensate you. Either that or you a what's commonly referred to as a hypercondriac. This is a real issue too.
As explicitly clear as you want to be or not, until smokers are told not to smoke at the station, clearly they will persist. I can't imagine many people waiting outside, 5-10 mins from their platform because clangers might get a sore throat and headache, when they can wait on the platform. Until that day, you'll just have to make do, then you complain about the cloud of smoke you have to pass on the way into the station from all the smokers grouped outside getting their fix as you put it.
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Old 22.11.2011, 19:48
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Old 02.01.2012, 19:05
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Having been here now for about 6 weeks I've noticed that, while waiting for trains to Zurich, or back at night, that some people (smokers) seem to think it is totally acceptable to stand next to some normal person (non-smoker) and puff on their cancer-sticks, exhaling their carcinogenic fumes for everyone else to inhale... so (with looks of disgust) I just move somewhere else on the gleiss only to have the same thing happen again.
Ok, 'when in Rome' and all that... but is this normal acceptable behaviour in Switzerland, or are these people just the Swiss equivalent of the anti-social scum we have in England... because even if I was (god forbid) a smoker then I wouldn't force someone else to endanger their health in this way....

any thoughts ?
Yea this really grinds my gears likewise, the icing on the cake is when they think it is okay to throw the used butt on the railway lines!! From what I have expierienced in Zurich so far everyone seems to be very respectful and courteous. This is one of those exceptions!
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Old 02.01.2012, 20:24
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

It's back for 2012
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Old 02.01.2012, 22:59
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

Unfortunately for non smokers like us this smoking habit is not pleasant.
when we came here 6 years ago smoking was allowed in all restaurants and cafes.
I agree that the Swiss donot think about wgere the smoke is going. what makes me laugh is the Swiss are health freaks yet they continually puff those sticks. My children diskike the smell and definitely do not want to smoke
I also dislike the way everyone just throws the butts on the ground
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Old 02.01.2012, 23:30
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

The discarding of cigarette butts on streets in Zurich seems far less than in London. Nearly every street has a bin with a cigarette disposal bit at the top.
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Old 03.01.2012, 00:02
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Unfortunately for non smokers like us this smoking habit is not pleasant.
when we came here 6 years ago smoking was allowed in all restaurants and cafes.
I agree that the Swiss donot think about wgere the smoke is going. what makes me laugh is the Swiss are health freaks yet they continually puff those sticks. My children diskike the smell and definitely do not want to smoke
I also dislike the way everyone just throws the butts on the ground
The Cantons in Switzerland and the union have, in quite numourous votes, restricted smoking. But you cannot establish laws for all details. The majority of non-smokers in Switzerland have brought about remarkable results in numerous votes.

Here, the ban on smoking in restaurants etc did not come from the Federal government or from either house of parliament but from the people. Hardly anywhere else did the people vote so clearly against smoking than here.

But if you tell the smokers that they cannot smoke on the trains, trams and buses it is obvious that you demand them to stop smoking before entering.

Prohibit the throwing the butts onto the ground ? Alright, launch an initiative on either Cantonal or Federal level and go ahead.

You see, here, the slogan of the French Revolution is put into practice *Le Souverain, c'est le people" (the souverain is the people / das Volk ist der Souverain )
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Old 03.01.2012, 03:25
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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It's back for 2012
True.
Happy New Year.
OTOH, we could all try and stop annoying people with our predilections for either smoking or complaining about it.
Nah, that's never going to happen, is it.

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But if you tell the smokers that they cannot smoke on the trains, trams and buses it is obvious that you demand them to stop smoking before entering.

Prohibit the throwing the butts onto the ground ? Alright, launch an initiative on either Cantonal or Federal level and go ahead.

You see, here, the slogan of the French Revolution is put into practice *Le Souverain, c'est le people" (the souverain is the people / das Volk ist der Souverain )
True Woli, but I have seen on average once a train ride, someone take a drag, throw the butt on the ground, tracks, etc. and then step up into the train whilst exhaling in the part of the rail car they travel through. I mean I get addiction, but is it possible to have some empathy? Or is that right out for these types?

Also, as regards the butt throwing thing. I thought that littering was the extreme pinnacle of antisocial behaviour in Switzerland? Like throwing trash in the recycling, recycling into the trash, mowing the lawn on Sunday, idling ones car on Sunday, I mean what barbarians litter in Switzerland these days?

I guess I wouldn't mind the Butts on the tracks if it wasn't for the butts in the town squares and the children's play areas and even in the public fountains. This last one makes me wonder if all of the butt littering isn't being done by foreigners, as I can't imagine a born and bred Swiss person committing this last atrocity.

The one thing I miss about Switzerland most is how tidy it was most of the time, excepting the butts, which seemed pretty normal compared to other countries that I have been. The plus being, that as it was Switzerland, the shop keepers wouldn't generally allow such filth to collect to the same degree as it would in my country.

I guess I was and am still amazed that in a country that is as "Self Regulated" as Switzerland generally tends to be that social conventions for smokers and smoking seem to have been left to the social equivalent of the fox guarding the hen house. Until a little over a year ago one would even find smoking in and around hospital grounds. C'estla vie.
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Old 03.01.2012, 10:06
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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True.
Happy New Year.
OTOH, we could all try and stop annoying people with our predilections for either smoking or complaining about it.
Nah, that's never going to happen, is it.



True Woli, but I have seen on average once a train ride, someone take a drag, throw the butt on the ground, tracks, etc. and then step up into the train whilst exhaling in the part of the rail car they travel through. I mean I get addiction, but is it possible to have some empathy? Or is that right out for these types?

Also, as regards the butt throwing thing. I thought that littering was the extreme pinnacle of antisocial behaviour in Switzerland? Like throwing trash in the recycling, recycling into the trash, mowing the lawn on Sunday, idling ones car on Sunday, I mean what barbarians litter in Switzerland these days?

I guess I wouldn't mind the Butts on the tracks if it wasn't for the butts in the town squares and the children's play areas and even in the public fountains. This last one makes me wonder if all of the butt littering isn't being done by foreigners, as I can't imagine a born and bred Swiss person committing this last atrocity.

The one thing I miss about Switzerland most is how tidy it was most of the time, excepting the butts, which seemed pretty normal compared to other countries that I have been. The plus being, that as it was Switzerland, the shop keepers wouldn't generally allow such filth to collect to the same degree as it would in my country.

I guess I was and am still amazed that in a country that is as "Self Regulated" as Switzerland generally tends to be that social conventions for smokers and smoking seem to have been left to the social equivalent of the fox guarding the hen house. Until a little over a year ago one would even find smoking in and around hospital grounds. C'estla vie.
Ooops, the_clangers has awoken.

Do you exaggerate about everything??

Happy New Year by the way, wishing you the best of luck in 2012 with tobacco cloud dodging and the enforcement of new anti smoking legislation
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Old 03.01.2012, 10:13
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

aaaaarrrrggggghhhhh!!!!!


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It's back for 2012
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Old 03.01.2012, 10:27
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Until a little over a year ago one would even find smoking in and around hospital grounds.
You still do.

Tom
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Old 03.01.2012, 21:57
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Ooops, the_clangers has awoken.

Do you exaggerate about everything??

Happy New Year by the way, wishing you the best of luck in 2012 with tobacco cloud dodging and the enforcement of new anti smoking legislation
Sadly, I don't tend to exaggerate. There is already too much hyperbole on the internet.

Happy new year to you as well.

Thanks for the good wishes as I am happy when I can dodge the clouds because it means the smokers can enjoy their past time without annoying me. Which is good for all of us, in the long run.
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Old 03.01.2012, 22:54
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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Sadly, I don't tend to exaggerate. There is already too much hyperbole on the internet.

Happy new year to you as well.

Thanks for the good wishes as I am happy when I can dodge the clouds because it means the smokers can enjoy their past time without annoying me. Which is good for all of us, in the long run.
You got that right! We been through those flawed stats haven't we 
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Old 08.01.2012, 18:10
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Re: Smokers on railway stations

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You got that right! We been through those flawed stats haven't we 
Ah,
The implication of flawed statistics that don't support your world view.
They would be part of that hyperbole I was referring to.

Kind of the same logic that people use to refute anything they don't like.
I on the otherhand have statistics but in this case don't care as my comfort level and empirical observation suffice for my world view. It is a question of empathy and treating other human beings as I would like to be treated.

If you see that something you do causes others pain the you should moderate your behaviour and try and be respectful. I have yet to hear an argument that makes a moral or ethical case for doing things that cause such distress in others in this particular situation.

Anyway, happy new year. May you develop a better sense of empathy in the new year while continuing to enjoy your drug of choice.

Nicotine for you. Caffeine for me.
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