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  #81  
Old 16.04.2012, 18:04
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Our local Vicar (in the UK) told our 5 year old that 'of course you are Christened, your parents would never allow you to grown up not Christened, as if you died, you wouldn't be able to go to Heaven (he fell short of telling her she would go to hell, but she was a very clever little thing and worked that one out for herself). And that was in our village school, as part of the normal curriculum.
Tears and nightmare for many nights to come. In those days I was meek and mild, and still regret not going to see the stupid old fool to tell him how I felt about that. ******
That is - or certainly was - official Catholic doctrine, wasnt it?
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Old 16.04.2012, 18:25
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

Well it was out local village school, but C of E (Anglican). Saying that to a child was dreadful- are you saying that as it is official doctrine it was the right thing to do? We didn't choose to send our kids to a religious school, it was the and only school where we lived - and had no idea the Vicar would have 'open' access to say such cruel things to small children and give them nightmares for months

Well yes I know, the Anglican Church is a bit like the Catholic Church without the Pope - thanks to dear Henry ( the ex beloved 'Protector of the faith') and his crew. I used to take students (from several European Countries) to St Pauls on a Sunday and evensong at King's Chapel Cambridge, ans it was hard for them to believe that these were 'reformed' services, High Church and all that.

Last edited by Odile; 16.04.2012 at 18:38.
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  #83  
Old 16.04.2012, 18:33
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Well it was out local village school, but C of E (Anglican). Saying that to a child was dreadful- are you saying that as it is official doctrine it was the right thing to do? We didn't choose to send our kids to a religious school, it was the and only school where we lived - and had no idea the Vicar would have 'open' access to say such cruel things to small children and give them nightmares for months

I hate to say it.....but I feel qualified through experience.....welcome to Catholicism and its ilk
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Old 16.04.2012, 18:43
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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That is - or certainly was - official Catholic doctrine, wasnt it?
I think it still is..

I grew up in a very Catholic way - went to a strict Convent school and had 2 Uncles who were catholic priests.

We were always told that if you didn't do this or that, then you would not enter heaven etc etc

The Catholic church is full of dogma and such a shame that young minds are brainwashed in this way.
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Old 16.04.2012, 19:10
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

In October I went to mass because it was the anniversary of my grandma's passing and my family had prepared a special service. During the service I felt uncomfortable not knowing what to do but just be respectful. Then during the sermon the priest decided to give an explanation to the immaculate conception saying that Jesus had received his 46 chromosomes from Mary, and that they both had the same genome, yes he said GENOME!
I was sitting next to my cousin that is a forestry engineer and as some of you know I have a medical background, I so wanted to raise my hand and tell him to shut up I just stood up and left...dissapeared 10 minutes in the Loo
I mean really? The Jesus was a girl!
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Old 16.04.2012, 19:14
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Our local Vicar (in the UK) told our 5 year old that 'of course you are Christened, your parents would never allow you to grown up not Christened, as if you died, you wouldn't be able to go to Heaven (he fell short of telling her she would go to hell, but she was a very clever little thing and worked that one out for herself). And that was in our village school, as part of the normal curriculum.
Tears and nightmare for many nights to come. In those days I was meek and mild, and still regret not going to see the stupid old fool to tell him how I felt about that. ******
..but why? Isn't this exactly what the bible preaches (among other things, such as stoning and killing of various people and animals for doing something "wrong").

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 16.04.2012 at 19:28.
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Old 16.04.2012, 19:49
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The post you just quoted explained it. It's the question of what one puts their faith in; God or Man made things. As for your a) & b); those you imagined.
Unfortunately, God is a subset of the group 'Man made things'.
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Old 16.04.2012, 21:42
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Unfortunately, God is a subset of the group 'Man made things'.
One would have to have exhaustive knowledge to be able to make such a statement with unequivocal certainty. With all due respect, you don't exactly come across as one possessing exhaustive knowledge.
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Old 16.04.2012, 22:49
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

Somehow I think the Almighty had nothing to do with the sinking of the Titanic, When you consider how many prayers were offered up to no avail from the many hundreds who drowned, it's hard not to conclude that the deity was conspicuously absent at the time.

I think, objectively, there is a BIG difference between faith and religion. Faith is about one's own spirituality and belief in a higher being and a moral and ethical code, religion is about controlling other people (arguably in an often hypocritical manner - as in "do as I say, not as I do").

I think that you can argue that by frightening or intimidating people into observing a particular code of conduct of a given religion it makes for a more malleable congregation (and one unlikely to challenge the "authority" of that religion) and is a darn sight easier to do than getting people to observe that code of conduct by persuading them of it's virtues and advantages.

Let us not forget, organised religion not only gave us Chartres Cathedral and the liturgical music of Bach, but also the iron maiden and the inquisition...
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Old 16.04.2012, 23:10
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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One would have to have exhaustive knowledge to be able to make such a statement with unequivocal certainty. With all due respect, you don't exactly come across as one possessing exhaustive knowledge.
Who does, God? Guy can't even get a PhD:
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Old 16.04.2012, 23:47
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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One would have to have exhaustive knowledge to be able to make such a statement with unequivocal certainty. With all due respect, you don't exactly come across as one possessing exhaustive knowledge.
One would also have to have more than exhaustive knowledge of the entire universe to be objectively certain of the existence of God. Please point to anyone with the requisite knowledge.
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Old 16.04.2012, 23:52
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

So what was the priest's point ? If he is saying that you must believe and follow the religious rules - OR ELSE ? Well to me, that makes his god and religoun on a par with a mafia boss. Who will someone round to trash people's businesses (and threaten them) if they do not pay the protection money. Not something any of us want to be part of really.

Even if that were written on the stern (and he may say he meant it symbolically), 99% of the people on that ship probably believed in a supreme being and would have cried out to him for help at the end, so like the OP, do not get this priest's point. He displays a lack of human empathy.

Last edited by isascott; 16.04.2012 at 23:53. Reason: mistakes
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Old 16.04.2012, 23:55
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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One would also have to have more than exhaustive knowledge of the entire universe to be objectively certain of the existence of God. Please point to anyone with the requisite knowledge.
Or witness a miracle.
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Old 17.04.2012, 00:17
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Or witness a miracle.
I was going to say that 'miracles described in the Daily Mail' don't count.
One can easily argue that miracles are simply phenomena unexplainable by the observer, but not necessarily unexplainable. And 'miracles' themselves: proof of God or a class of natural (as opposed to supernatural) phenomenon not yet described and understood? If you don't know the answer to that definitively, then 'miracles' as proof of God are pretty weak as proofs go.
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Old 17.04.2012, 00:42
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I was going to say that 'miracles described in the Daily Mail' don't count.
One can easily argue that miracles are simply phenomena unexplainable by the observer, but not necessarily unexplainable. And 'miracles' themselves: proof of God or a class of natural (as opposed to supernatural) phenomenon not yet described and understood? If you don't know the answer to that definitively, then 'miracles' as proof of God are pretty weak as proofs go.
Thanks for referring to the Daily Mail as as resource for your morality detection.

Lots of word play, but a miracle does not need to be a shooting start after one asks for a sign from God. Or the raining of fire. A miracle such as God speaking to you might be just fine with me. But then all you practical kats will tell me that speaking to God only equates to being a nut job/crazy.
Which is a load of crap.
Everyone is ok here to question every single thing that has happened as more of an evolution of the planet, the universe, but if anyone disagrees or believes otherwise, then they are crazy because they do not agree.

It is quite a religion of science, or a matter of casting doubt of a person's mental standing because they do believe they have interacted with God. The same sort of tactics of religious zealots trying to make people believe, people who not throw back onto them.

You are saying there is no way to prove God's existence. But what is faith, when there is nothing to have in? If I do not trust an action will take place, until I have seen the action take place, then there is no commitment. It's only quite selfishness.

If I don't know the answer to if I know where a miracle comes from, and I know it comes from God, then I can call it a miracle? Well then, I know miracles to be true. Answered.

Short answer: You asked about the definition of miracles, and I told you that proof of God could be in the form of witnessing a miracle. I don't mean another person's miracle experience for other people. I mean if one has that experience, it would work for me as proof of God. But I think having a moment with him, and then being able to verify the contents of that experience in actual life, then if it's some one else's miracle it can be quite convincing as well.
Does that work for you? Or should I have answered that with some pie charts and fancy numerical equations?
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Old 17.04.2012, 00:53
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I hate to say it.....but I feel qualified through experience.....welcome to Catholicism and its ilk
Nah, the RCC doesn't have the market in fear as a motivator to faith as for many, fear is precisely the deus machina behind their faith, e.g. if you aren't christened then you'll spend eternity in some warm, evil place (actually I prefer the Nordic vision of a very cold, very dark place, but I digress).

My own 5yo has never been exposed to religion and my youngest sister who is rather religious thinks it is a terrible crime.... after 18 years of Catholic schools, I'm utterly immune to any and all tactics that involve fear and/or guilt to motivate.

If you can't bring the flock without fear of punishment, then maybe the faithful are really just the fearful.
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Old 17.04.2012, 00:59
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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One would also have to have more than exhaustive knowledge of the entire universe to be objectively certain of the existence of God. Please point to anyone with the requisite knowledge.
Not to mention that the human race has a long history of switching horses when it comes to gods and religions. I think I still like the greek gods the best (and note that they are now referred to as 'mythology'...). I liked the idea of "The Force" until Lucas screwed it all up with the Jar Jar Binks movies.
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Old 17.04.2012, 04:00
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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In October I went to mass because it was the anniversary of my grandma's passing and my family had prepared a special service. During the service I felt uncomfortable not knowing what to do but just be respectful. Then during the sermon the priest decided to give an explanation to the immaculate conception saying that Jesus had received his 46 chromosomes from Mary, and that they both had the same genome, yes he said GENOME!
I was sitting next to my cousin that is a forestry engineer and as some of you know I have a medical background, I so wanted to raise my hand and tell him to shut up I just stood up and left...dissapeared 10 minutes in the Loo
I mean really? The Jesus was a girl!
Didn't you know the 'H.' in Jesus H. Christ stands for 'haploid'?
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Old 17.04.2012, 06:45
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Thanks for referring to the Daily Mail as as resource for your morality detection.

Lots of word play, but a miracle does not need to be a shooting start after one asks for a sign from God. Or the raining of fire. A miracle such as God speaking to you might be just fine with me. But then all you practical kats will tell me that speaking to God only equates to being a nut job/crazy.
Which is a load of crap.
Everyone is ok here to question every single thing that has happened as more of an evolution of the planet, the universe, but if anyone disagrees or believes otherwise, then they are crazy because they do not agree.

It is quite a religion of science, or a matter of casting doubt of a person's mental standing because they do believe they have interacted with God. The same sort of tactics of religious zealots trying to make people believe, people who not throw back onto them.

You are saying there is no way to prove God's existence. But what is faith, when there is nothing to have in? If I do not trust an action will take place, until I have seen the action take place, then there is no commitment. It's only quite selfishness.

If I don't know the answer to if I know where a miracle comes from, and I know it comes from God, then I can call it a miracle? Well then, I know miracles to be true. Answered.

Short answer: You asked about the definition of miracles, and I told you that proof of God could be in the form of witnessing a miracle. I don't mean another person's miracle experience for other people. I mean if one has that experience, it would work for me as proof of God. But I think having a moment with him, and then being able to verify the contents of that experience in actual life, then if it's some one else's miracle it can be quite convincing as well.
Does that work for you? Or should I have answered that with some pie charts and fancy numerical equations?
No, just simply no.

There was no fancy word play there, just an accurate description.

I'm afraid that using a blind faith accusation for the "faithless" in regards to a blind following of science just doesn't apply - and really, it's one of the absolutely most astonishing failings of any pro-religion rebuttal I've seen.

The issue, is that we just simply don't share the same reasoning. In our training, we are taught to question, you are taught to believe; we are taught that our ideas must be supported by observed reality, you are taught that any idea that isn't supported is simply "divine"; we are taught that being proven wrong makes for a good day as we've learned something new, you're taught to resist views other than those preached from your specific brand of book; we're taught that a strong argument is logical and supportable; you're taught to appeal to wonder and emotion; we're taught that we "know" nothing, but to build on what we can support today to further what we do understand, you're taught that if you can link it to tone scripture, you "know" it to be true.

Unfortunately, though faith has indeed served mankind in the past, I, and I sincerely hope the majority of my kin, do not need a dusty book of questionable origin and a condescending flock of sinister-hat-and-robe donned congregation to tell me that theft and murder are bad things!!

To come to the real point, I'm afraid that I don't believe we'll ever really be able to communicate on a meaningful level. You see, questioning the universe and presenting those findings to peers for review is the foundation of our communication, and unfortunately as you would have had no experience in that, your arguments come across as poorly conceived, muddled, self-congratulatory, naive and infantile at the best of times.

And all this is evidenced. If a preacher, presenting a position of authority to young minds, spouts off an unsubstantiated story about the almighty smiting the unfaithful, most let it slide as the moral of the story was with good intention. But if a scientist were to do the same, they would be discredited and eventually, most likely expelled from the community.


I'm afraid these differences on core view will forever present a rift. You will always see me as a faithless , immoral "god-player", and I will likely always see you as naive, emotional and illogical.

But please, present a valid argument and prove me wrong.
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Old 17.04.2012, 06:50
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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One would also have to have more than exhaustive knowledge of the entire universe to be objectively certain of the existence of God. Please point to anyone with the requisite knowledge.
The term 'more than exhaustive knowledge' is hyperbole, and has no place in the realm of sound logic. Exhaustive knowledge, by definition, is already ... exhaustive. The above assertion is logically fallacious in any case: Exhaustive knowledge is not necessary for one being to have first-hand knowledge of another being. Denying that such knowledge is attainable is yet another claim requiring exhaustive knowledge (i.e., one would have to possess all knowledge in order to be able to state unequivocally whether certain knowledge were attainable or not).
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