The point is: when a company is able to meet the conditions they publish on their website only under certain circumstances the information is misleading for the customer.
Why do we have to theorize on why the OP was in need of the books in 3 days? Perhaps he was not in need of the books in 3 days, perhaps he was, that is irrelevant. The point is that he expected a company that publish certain delivery conditions standing for what they declare. Yes, it is a perfectly valid complain.

I certainly understand the OP's frustration; my experience with books.ch has been less than satisfactory.

But I've come to accept that Orell Fussli really doesn't have much interest in the online side of their business. It seems to be an after-thought to them, hence the poor customer service.

For online purchases I go to retailers who have made online their core business - Amazon and Bookdepository - where the selection is far greater, the process fast and efficient. And when I want to ruffle through the pages while discussing literature I go to Pile Of Books, one of the few bookstores in ZH run by a true bibliophile.

Exactly. If payment with an invoice is an option, there should be a note on the website stating that orders over xCHf will require a down payment first. This info should be available BEFORE making the purchase, not after.

So I get it, if I do not speak German is my fault.
I will try to read also the german version of the QA for this website, to see if I can find anywhere the info about the upfront deposit of CHF 400 for orders bigger than 1000 CHF. In U.S. this is called scam, and believe me people are avoiding it.
Just to summarize:
- they did not meet the delivery time.
- they asked for money in advance without being specified anywhere.
- they sent the books split in 5 shipments so that I have to pay shipping charges.
-they did not provide info about where should I put the money for the deposit until I asked.
- they did not automatically returned my money after paying 1000 CHF ( 2 thirds of the amount)
- I am still struggling to get my money back.


I'll let you all come to the conclusion if it was anybody's fault.

Cheers

Thank you for your opinion.
They way I see it also : they have a problem, OK no problem, but why should people not know this, and stay away from them.
I am pretty sure that going to their place would be a different experience. But buying online, they treat you like ...
Cheers

Glad that I could help. That was also one of my intentions. The first one is obvious .
Cheers.

You can't compare the infrastructure and the logistics that amazon has built-up over the years with www.books.ch.
That's like comparing a mom-and-pop grocery store to Harrods.
Remember, their IT-infrastructure is so big (and they did it so well) that they started to rent out parts of it and are now the No1 IaaS provider.

I would have advised you to just pickup the orderded books in Zurich (seeing as they don't have a shop in Luzern) - simply because most online-retailers here don't have the necessary logistics to do a "accumulated delivery" of an order that could not be fulfilled in one go due to lack of availability of certain items.

All the other stuff (expensive phone-lines, lack-of-procecure for large (or "unusual") orders, a certain disregard for the single customer) is pretty much standard here.
If you look at the German wikipedia-page of O-F:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orell_F%C3%BCssli
You will see that the company was founded in 1519 and has been publicly traded at the Zurich stock exchange since 1897!
So, they've been doing this book-business for some time.
But with age often comes a lot of baggage - there are probably a lot of old guys around calling the shots who don't really "get" the internet and the logistic challenges it brings with it. After all, the internet is just a series of tubes, right?
;-)

AFAIK, their book-business hasn't been doing too well:
http://www.orellfuessli.com/de/medie...haeftsverlauf/

Maybe you could write a (friendly worded) letter to the management and point out the difficiencies? Often, management has no idea what goes on in the trenches....

I quote the general terms and conditions :http://www.books.ch/customerService/...ink?bpmlang=en
It is very arrogant if you blame Orell Fülli to be a scam because the use an ambigious formulation in the English version of their web page, while the German page is perfectly clear about the fact, that they may not have the item currently in stock. After all you were ordering from a predominantly German bookstore in a German speaking country.

They may not even know that the formulation they use in the English version is ambigious, as the people in charge may not have the neccessary command of English and/or do not read through the English version as most of their businesses goes over the German version. So if you really want to do something write them an e-mail and tell them that the formulation they use on the English version is ambiguous.

If they however do not want to forfeit the shipment costs you can just point to their GTCs.

Just looked at OF's website. Seems OK to me, everything is clear - except of course if I have expectations which I couldn't meet myself.

When I order English books I reckon on at least three weeks delivery time - it's pretty obvious to me that in a country where G F I are the predominant languages that a foreign language book won't be lying on the shelf. Nor would I order 16 books with a delivery time of 2-3 days as I can't read so fast that I need all books on the table. Let a bit of common sense rule for god's sake. If the delivery agreement hasn't been kept to then only pay that which is legally binding, it's no problem.

@Laertes If you consider me as being an arrogant person maybe you should read first the definition of scam according to any dictionary: a stratagem for gain. I paid more than the initial quotation and ended up asking back for my deposit. Would you please give me 400 CHF for a week or so, so that I can use them on my own benefit and then give it back to you only if you would ask that ? I am pretty sure that this and the fact that they are not returning the delivery charges that I paid , and that you mention to point out that, pretty much explains what do I feel about this.

If you would have read all the point that I explained in my first post of this thread, you would have seen that arrogance is not really in my nature, since I tried to talk with them and not filled a complaint immediately.

If you are saying that dealing with English speaking people should not require knowing what you are telling them on your website, again I tend to disagree.
And tell me please why is Switzerland a German speaking country? What if I were from the western part? Are you sure that the around 50K of Romansh people are agreeing? It has four national languages, and I think that if you decide to provide services for English speaking people, you should be able to treat them equally. And again just to be clear: it is a confederation not a country.

I was rather trying to do a good thing for the community of people here ( and also letting out my rage about this situation). I guess they need to revise their policy and not that I should tell them ( and expect the same fair treatment as it was up to this moment from them) : Hey guys, you should do your business better.

@Busby

There is more than delivery time. If you were just trying to mock me by saying that you cannot read 16 books in 2-3 days, well good for you. I needed the books fast for my own reasons ( which are mentioned in the initial post).

[QUOTE=Nicub;1596898
@Busby

There is more than delivery time. If you were just trying to mock me by saying that you cannot read 16 books in 2-3 days, well good for you. I needed the books fast for my own reasons ( which are mentioned in the initial post).[/QUOTE]

Being 'dynamically businesslike' is one thing - being awkward is another. As I said, common sense would tell you that such an order cannot be completed without complications.

First: I understand that you are p!ssed off, you really needed those books. Fine.

But don't worry for the romansh people's German, really they are fine with it.
As for English services, just enjoy what you get, it's already a lot. Life is unfair, shit happens, it is all right to be upset but this happened a while ago, you should have cooled off by now. Your experience is interesting: it tells people to be careful with online services. Most of us can confirm that... no big deal.

Last one before starting a flame here.

@Busby : My lack of common sense says that if you are business and claim that you can do something you'd better do it. No matter what business, which area, what is the target market. Thank you for saying that I was not 'thinking' when placed the order. Maybe some of us are smarter. That being said, and being the second time when you called me stupid in a different way, I think you and me should end this discussion here.

Well, they claimed that they would have the books ready to send to you within 2-3 days.
You placed your order on Friday June 18.
At that time there was no contract between you and the bookstore, yet, as their needs to be mutual consent.
They then sent to you an email in which they stated under which conditions they are willing to make a contract with you (i.e. downpaiment of CHF 400). It is awkward that they did not include the payment details, and did not reply to your email (where did you get the email adress from? Is it possible that it was a noreply address?).

If I look at your timeframe they did not receive your down payment before Thursday June 21, maybe later. They claimed to have your goods ready for shipment within three days. That means till Monday June 24. If you add the two to three days needed for the items to arrive by post they actually did meet the delivery time they claimed.

It could very well be that the employee handling your case screwed the whole thing up. As your case was obviously handled manually, maybe he forget to tick an option for free shipment, or something like this. As he forgot to include the payment details for the down paiment as well, maybe he did make other mistakes, too. So in case you have his name it could be a good idea to complain about him with the company.

Friday June the 18th? . It was the 16th. And I received an order number. I thought that this is a contract or whatever you would like to call that.

Again as I stated before :

It was already the 20th of June and I called them again asking for the books. At first they could not confirm that they received the money. I sent them a screenshot from my bank account showing that the transfer was made and they confirmed they will start sending the books and I will get them as soon as possible.

So I paid the right moment when I received the info from them.

Now on the other hand, if you purchase something from a company, would you say that Mr. or Mrs. X was to blame if something goes wrong? Or the company?

I am not saying that everyone should agree with me, all that I am trying to say is that the facts, this time, work not in their favour. Even if someone accepts it or not.
I think it is very hot outside and maybe we all should go for beer.
Cheers to everyone.

Right. And I'm often one of the first to point out that English is not an official language when someone complains about this or that not being available in English.
But we're not talking about some mom-and-pop store here, we're talking about one of the biggest book retail companies in the country who prides itself of running "the largest English bookshop on the European continent"!

You would most certainly expect those guys to operate a website in proper, comprehensible English, wouldn't you? And it's not exactly rocket science either. You came up with a fine translation ("ready to ship in 2-3 days") in your previous post and you aren't even a professional translator, are you?

Why on earth should I expect at least three weeks delivery time when the store's website claims that the book is ready for shipment in 2-3 days?

After all, once the prepayment issues were straightened out, the books were ready for shipment rather quickly.

You spoke my mind.
I totally agree that English is not the official language ( and that it should not be) in Switzerland.
As you very well pointed I went to books.ch and not to Bücher.ch .
Thank you again very much Mark75 for all your posting.
Cheers

I think one thing that is often forgotten is why exactly Amazon is so popular. Of course they've got a better infrastructure and logistics than any Swiss company but this is only part of the story.

If the OP had purchased through Amazon she would have found exact details on how to pay. When delivery would've been delayed she would've been offered to cancel her order straight away and one is able to write with a customer service person straight away through their messenger system. On top of this one can send products back without problem. So not only are the prices competitive, but costumer service, especially compared to the Swiss shops is unbeatable.

Swiss shops on the other hand generally have less than average customer service, unreliable product information (not just with delivery times. In the terms & conditions they often write that they don't guarantee the accuracy of the product description) and it's next to impossible to get your money back if they're greatly delayed. Often you can only cancel the contract a month and returning something for whatever reason is unheard off for online shops.

In short Nicub you'll probably have to take this as a lesson learned. Don't trust Swiss online shops and most definitely never buy anything your unsure of or need urgently and I always pay by credit card so I have them to fall back on if the shop is being difficult.

What I'm confused though is why you need to get your deposit back? If you bought 1000Fr worth of books the deposit should have been added towards that and you should have just paid 600 Fr

_
Swiss suppliers =? May well be, but it is typical of many such companies all over Europe. O-F neighther is the first nor the only such companies in Europe to jump into a market segment they do not really understand


[QUOTE=Mark75;1596965]
Right. And I'm often one of the first to point out that English is not an official language when someone complains about this or that not being available in English.
But we're not talking about some mom-and-pop store here, we're talking about one of the biggest book retail companies in the country who prides itself of running "the largest English bookshop on the European continent"!
/QUOTE]

I am absolutely sure that the mail-order business is NOT done by those who are active in the EnglishBookshop.


[QUOTE=Mark75;1596965]
You would most certainly expect those guys to operate a website in proper, comprehensible English, wouldn't you? And it's not exactly rocket science either. You came up with a fine translation ("ready to ship in 2-3 days") in your previous post and you aren't even a professional translator, are you?
/QUOTE]

Is their WEBsite in a professional comprehensive German

[QUOTE=Mark75;1596965]
Why on earth should I expect at least three weeks delivery time when the store's website claims that the book is ready for shipment in 2-3 days?
/QUOTE]
-
Why ? Because
A) "ready for shipment" refers to the time when the stuff is ready THERE to be shipped !
B) because any realistic experience shows that a full week is needed, rather more, so that the WEBsite tells rubbish

-
Do you really believe them that the books really were ready at that time ? I believe that the stuff just was located at the suppliers

I agree that Amazon are wonderful.
Last Christmas a whole parcel of books I'd ordered from them went missing.
They re-sent the entire order without further charge to me and, when the missing books finally turned up after Christmas, Amazon told me to keep them and I was able to donate them to charity.