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Old 30.11.2012, 01:42
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Lift Strife

Hi All,
So, I run a recording studio, and to that end, i rent a bomb shelter, in a business building.
One of the reasons I rented my particular bomb shelter, is easy access to a cargo lift, 3m from my door.
Now, a woman has moved into the top floor apartment, and says she cannot accept the noise of the lift, and insists that it is shut down after 7pm.
The estate agent responsible for all this, just wants to let her have her way.
He said to me, (not outright, but the meaning was clear), because she rents a lot of space from the agency, I will lose out if I dispute this.
It doesn't say specifically say in my contract that I can use the lift, however it doesn't specifically exclude it either.
So, I would like to know, if that can be considered reasonable, edit: from a contractual point of view? Obviously, its not reasonable from a day to day point of view.
Second question, if I decide to make a fuss, go to mieterverband, etc, can they just kick me out after 3 months?
What are my rights? Any help gratefully received!
Morph

Last edited by Morph; 30.11.2012 at 02:17. Reason: Clarity
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Old 30.11.2012, 01:49
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Re: Lift Strife

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Hi All,
So, I run a recording studio, and to that end, i rent a bomb shelter, in a business building.
One of the reasons I rented my particular bomb shelter, is easy access to a cargo lift, 3m from my door.
Now, a woman has moved into the top floor apartment, and says she cannot accept the noise of the lift, and insists that it is shut down after 7pm.
The estate agent responsible for all this, just wants to let her have her way.
He said to me, (not outright, but the meaning was clear), because she rents a lot of space from the agency, I will lose out if I dispute this.
It doesn't say specifically say in my contract that I can use the lift, however it doesn't specifically exclude it either.
So, I would like to know, if that can be considered reasonable?
Second question, if I decide to make a fuss, go to mieterverband, etc, can they just kick me out after 3 months?
What are my rights? Any help gratefully received!
Morph
Usually noise is limited after 10pm; I do not see how after 7pm is considered reasonable?
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Old 30.11.2012, 01:55
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Re: Lift Strife

Hi Marlon,
Well yes, I made this point, but it seems I am to be ignored.
Bear in mind, this is not music noise, it is lift noise. There was a couple, with a six month old baby, living there before, no complaints.
I want access to the lift 24/7, but I was willing to compromise on 10pm.
But no, not possible.
Thanks for your input, Marton
Morph
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Old 30.11.2012, 08:20
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Re: Lift Strife

As you are running a commercial business with possible loss of income if you have to move, plus you are in a commercial building (apparently with mixed use) with a commercial lease, this thread is a bit different from your usual private neighbourly battles.

You could just carry on with the implicit threat they terminate your lease (hard to imagine the police would be interested). You could move out but I agree why should you .

I suggest you get some legal advice, either from the Mieterverband, but I dont know if they help commercial operations on a lawyer.
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Old 30.11.2012, 08:29
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Re: Lift Strife

If you're using the lift just for personal transport, can you not consider using the stairs? (you haven't mentioned how many floors this would be). Just think of the health benefits - no more expensive gym membership, or running/cycling in the cold and dark.

Obviously, for equipment, then use the lift until 10.

Although, I don't believe in avoiding making waves when you may be within your rights, but sometimes it's best not to crap on your own doorstep, and a bit of compromise is often the path of least resistance.
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Old 30.11.2012, 08:38
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Re: Lift Strife

I hope you can sort this out. Seems reasonable that you could continue to use it until 10pm.

How often and for what do you actually use it between 7pm and 10pm?
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Old 30.11.2012, 08:45
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Re: Lift Strife

The lady is on the top floor? How many floors does the building have?
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Old 30.11.2012, 09:02
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Re: Lift Strife

The lady is bluffing. Lift noise is a normal part of appartment life.
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Old 30.11.2012, 09:08
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Re: Lift Strife

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The lady is bluffing. Lift noise is a normal part of appartment life.

It's a cargo-lift.
It may be a bit noisier.
But not after 7PM?
That's one hell of a WTF!
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Old 30.11.2012, 09:15
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Re: Lift Strife

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It's a cargo-lift.
It may be a bit noisier.
But not after 7PM?
That's one hell of a WTF!
A cargo lift eh?

Hmm, should still be ok but tread carefuly with the owner.

Good luck.
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Old 30.11.2012, 10:02
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Re: Lift Strife

Hi All,
Thanks for the replies.
Just to allay any confusion.
The Lady in question just deactivates the lift, by leaving the door open on her floor, so I cannot use it. This happens sometimes at 4.30pm on a Sunday.
The estate agent just agrees with her, because she pays more rent than me.
So there is no dispute, I cannot use the lift, when she decides to block it.
I just don't agree.
i have tried to compromise, I was requested to send a letter, detailing my objections to this new system, which I did, received no reply for weeks, and I called yesterday, to find out what was going on.
The agent said, "Oh, I thought everyone was happy, because I didn't get any complaints". I replied, yes you did, my letter.
We argue for a while, he agrees it's ridiculous, He even said " If I had known about the noise problem, I would have never rented the apartment".
I wanted to say, "So it's your fault. Well done, Einstein", but I refrained.
He then went on to say " I would like it if you didn't use this lift, after 7pm".
I said in previous discussions, I was willing to compromise on 10pm, however, now I am not willing to compromise, after such shabby treatment.
This is a commercial building, there was never any complaints before (see OP),
I am running a business, in a business building. I use the lift for the same thing everyone else uses it, occasional transport of heavy goods, and transporting my ass to the surface. The Lady uses the lift, after 7pm!
I have gone to great lengths to find a bomb shelter, with 1m thick concrete walls, with steel and concrete door, 2 levels underground, to have some complaint free time to record music. Now I must deal with this.
What next? Don't use the stairs? Shall I get into my studio via the process of osmosis?
I can't find a clause in my contract, saying anyone who pays more money than me can dictate new rules.
I don't care if the Lady never gets a wink more sleep in her life. I don't care if the agent hates me. I don't need exercise, I cycle everywhere. I want what I pay for. A lift.
Therefore, I am wondering if anyone can say if I can fight this. Like I said in the OP, maybe they will just end my contract, if I cause trouble.
I will make an appointment with the mieterverband, but I thought there might be some legal eagles with some knowledge of the subject.
Thanks for all the replies!
Morph
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Old 30.11.2012, 10:29
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Re: Lift Strife

Can't help I'm afraid, but just want to send my sympathy. I've dealt with arsehole estate agents before now, as well as unreasonable neighbours, and I know how stressful it can be. The woman herself uses the lift after 7pm - huh!

I would say though that if you can, get any correspondence (replies in particular) with the estate agent in writing. I know (from experience) that isn't always possible as they have a tendency not to reply but if you can (bombard them maybe) then if there is an issue with this you'll have what they say in writing.

Looks like you have all the salient points in mind, so good luck when you see your lawyer.
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Old 30.11.2012, 10:32
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Re: Lift Strife

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Hi All,
Thanks for the replies.
Just to allay any confusion.
The Lady in question just deactivates the lift, by leaving the door open on her floor, so I cannot use it.

Then just walk up and close the door again and use it.
As you said, you don't mind exercise...

One of you is going to get tired of this game, sooner or later.
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Old 30.11.2012, 10:59
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Re: Lift Strife

I would contact these people:

www.mieterverband.ch

I'm sure they deal with business as well as private renters. They will set you straight on your rights.

In your case, you have pointed out that this is a commercial building, and you have no further restrictions within your contract.

Time restrictions aside, the only thing that is clear is that none of you actually own the building.
  • She rents
  • You rent
  • There is an agent who does the work.
  • This is strictly business and should be fully negotiable
I'd find out who actually owns the building, and if anything I'd try to point out that this new restriction on your business is in breach of the contract.
...... at which point I'd suggest renegotiating the rent.
Prepare in advance a document to point out the financial impact of this 'unwritten law', and request a significant rent reduction to compensate for the inconvenience, lack of disclosure at the time of signing, and business interuption*.

It's not as thought the lift has recently been installed and is now causing a concern.

You need to pull this bird off her perch.

(*check any clauses you may already have in your current insurance policies for BI (business interuption) cover)
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:06
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Re: Lift Strife

Another thing.

I'd still do the research on your rights first so that you can be prepared.


but the best approach might be to then sidestep the spineless real estate agent and invite the woman out to lunch or dinner.

Ask her about her business, what she does, and then how the lift noise impacts her.

Try to explain your side of the story, and see if an arrangement can be made.

Summarise the topics in a polite email for future reference.


....... If everything fails, and she continues to be a fat cow, then you will know precisely what to do moving forward, and nobody can say that you didn't try your best to sort this out in advance.
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:15
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Re: Lift Strife

Yeah, you're probably already doing this but is it workable - can you time moving heavy stuff so that it's done before 7pm?

How much of a real issue (rather than an irritation) is it?
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:24
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Re: Lift Strife

In the short period that I had a flat here in Basel the use of the lift was a extra 40 or 50 Franks, (can't remember exact, could have been 30) on top of the rent, so if you don't have Liftbenutzung in your contract you could be on thin ice.
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:29
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Re: Lift Strife

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Yeah, you're probably already doing this but is it workable - can you time moving heavy stuff so that it's done before 7pm?

How much of a real issue (rather than an irritation) is it?

thats not the point, as she blocks the lift during the day whats the next step, blocking at after 2pm ?

she is living in a commercial building... she has to expect all things associated with that.
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:40
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Re: Lift Strife

ring her doorbell to tell her to unblock the lift.

between ringing doorbell and lift noise, i know which i would pick
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Old 30.11.2012, 11:42
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Re: Lift Strife

Hi All,
Thanks for the replies.
I have spoken to the Mieterverband, and I managed to get some information from them over the phone.
Basically, if I annoy the agents enough, they can kick me out after 3 months.
I can dispute this, and then be kicked after a year.
The agents have no right to do this lift thing, but it seems they can get away with it.
I can ask for a rent reduction, but they might well consider this annoying, and kick me out for that.
So, the Mieterverband told me what I have already surmised for myself, but for them to actually give me written legal arguments, I will have to pay 150 chuffs, as it is a business. Great.
Rainer, I don't have access to the door, so I can't shut it.
It is an issue, would you want to drag half a tone of gear, PAST a lift door, and up 2 flights of stairs?
It is not appreciated, I can tell you.
We finish when we finish, my record is 5am.
I have tried talking to the Lady, I did that at the start, I explained all my points politely, she would not listen, just kept on talking over me, saying over an over "I can't sleep".
TidakApa, I know all about her business, she is the premiere purveyor of lollipops in Switzerland, with a chain of shops.
The music biz is hard enough to make living, I am certainly not going to pay for lunch for this............lady.
Though I get what you are saying, I don't think it will help.
So, all in all, screwed again, like the tag says. I find this extremely annoying, to say the least.
Morph
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