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  #21  
Old 03.12.2012, 14:03
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

I might be upset had I had one chat on the phone with the lawyer then gotten the bill. But two (2) phone calls AND a face to face meeting?

Do you meet with the painter three times in order for him to provide a quote?
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  #22  
Old 03.12.2012, 14:19
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Hey
I had a similar experience.
(600chf to install Swisscom!)

Long story short, they tried charging me for three hours of work that i hadnt agreed to, that i wasnt told about, and that they tried to sneak onto the invoice.

I had my assistant ring them up to demand a minute by minute account of exactly what they did in those three hours, and proof that they did it. Once they proved a basis for three hours work, i would pay them. Until then, i would only pay for the work i saw them do.


This was a week ago, and as of yet, no response. not even a follow up call.

Switzerland is expensive, but dont pay for work that wasnt carried out, or if they didnt warn you or tell you they were going to charge you. By swiss law, they cannot charge you for work you did not agree to, and you have to be notified of prep work too. He should have told you he was charging for the consultation. If not (and he didnt advertise the fact) you have grounds to refuse.

There seems to be a lot of people on EF who would simply pay up on the pretence of 'This is Switzerland, its standard practice here'. Dont fall for it. A con is a con, regardless of flag. You worked hard for that money, its only fair that he does too.
I wouldnt say your experience was similar, the OP knows how much time she occupied of said lawyer. Your situation is for an invoice for time that was not spent.

A few people have alluded to why certain "professionals" charge for such "consultations". An hour (or more) spent with you is an hour (or more) not spent with other fee paying clients.

Considering most of us in this industry work on a billable hourly rate, our time is charged by the hour.

I have had numerous potential clients come in for a consultation whereby they will tell me their situation, and listen to the advice and options they have. Without this advice, they would not be able to make a decision on how to proceed.

Much like the OP, although the advice might not be what they wanted in terms of legal action or whatever, it enabled them to plan their next step and feel assured, from a professional, as to how to handle the issue they have.

Agreed there should be more transparency in fee structure etc. But at least the OP now knows to ask at the outset, how much for your services?
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  #23  
Old 03.12.2012, 14:23
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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I wouldnt say your experience was similar, the OP knows how much time she occupied of said lawyer. Your situation is for an invoice for time that was not spent.

A few people have alluded to why certain "professionals" charge for such "consultations". An hour (or more) spent with you is an hour (or more) not spent with other fee paying clients.

Considering most of us in this industry work on a billable hourly rate, our time is charged by the hour.

I have had numerous potential clients come in for a consultation whereby they will tell me their situation, and listen to the advice and options they have. Without this advice, they would not be able to make a decision on how to proceed.

Much like the OP, although the advice might not be what they wanted in terms of legal action or whatever, it enabled them to plan their next step and feel assured, from a professional, as to how to handle the issue they have.

Agreed there should be more transparency in fee structure etc. But at least the OP now knows to ask at the outset, how much for your services?
You're right, there is that difference. OP, how long were the phone calls and the visit?
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  #24  
Old 03.12.2012, 14:25
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

I had same experience with a Lawyer in Zurich. We had one meeting and few email exchanges. Problem with Law firms or Lawyers is that they are not painter and don't do things which can be physically measured, like counting SqMts painted. The whole business model is consultation and time.

I got a invoice from them which I thought was way too high. I called them and talked to firm's partner and told her that this was too high an amount. She recosnidered the amount and we settled. I suggest the same to you.

I can understand it is always painful parting 100s of Franks after realizing that services are not required but you need to consider the time and consultation they have given you.
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  #25  
Old 03.12.2012, 14:28
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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You're right, there is that difference. OP, how long were the phone calls and the visit?
At the price quoted, I would say 1.5hrs ' ish
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  #26  
Old 03.12.2012, 15:18
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

I reinforce mica's very good advice earlier in the thread.

For this insight, I will shortly send you an invoice by PM for my time (hourly increments, rounded up), payable in green blobs.
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  #27  
Old 18.08.2015, 20:11
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Retaining a lawyer is a mandate agreement. There does not have to be any specific agreement on the fees or payment because the law on mandate agreements states "Remuneration is payable where agreed or customary." (http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/220/a394.html).

And since lawyers rarely do anything for free, remuneration is customary. The question of course is what is a customary hourly rate. Questions like that can be raised with the Commission of Legal Fees of the Zurich Bar Association (http://www.zav.ch/verband/honorarkom...l?newLangID=en).

As a matter of professional ethics and bar rules, a lawyer should inform his client on taking on a mandate about the basics arrangement of his fee arrangement (Art. 18 Swiss Bar Rules). Generally, he or she will tell you that he bills his time and what his hourly rate is. However, even if does not, the rules on mandate agreements still apply.
Would this apply on my case? I contacted a lawyer regarding a case and we had only a 1/2 an hour first discussion, I didn't like him and never contacted him again.

To my surprise, one year later, he sent me a registered letter saying that I owe him CHF 1050 for 2.8 hours of work (?), he claimed that this was the 3rd time he sent me the invoice to my email, and falsified some emails as "evidence". I am speechless and furious. We never agree on a fee and he didn't say in advance that he would charge. No documents were signed either.

I would have payed for his consultation, but considering the falsified emails and inflated hours worked I am leaning towards claiming that we never spoke and that I owe him nothing.

What would you recommend?
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  #28  
Old 18.08.2015, 20:16
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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I find it very odd that people expect anyone to work for free. I don't think I would use a Dentist or Lawyer who even offered to work for free! Both services are available at various price levels & there is a reason.
Reminds me of the story of the doctor and the lawyer who met in a pub.

The doctor asked the lawyer, "do you friends ask you for professional advice all the time".

The lawyer replied "no, but they used to".

The doctor said "how did you stop them? I'm so annoyed by my friends asking for medical advice when we meet casually"

The lawyer said "simple, I bill them for all advice given".

The doctor said, "what an excellent idea. I'll do that too".

He came home to find an invoice for 800 CHF from the lawyer in his letterbox.
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  #29  
Old 18.08.2015, 20:29
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

Speak to a different lawyer - as you are in Basel I recommend these guys with whom I have had good experience:

http://www.gmacg.com

HTH.
Nick


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Would this apply on my case? I contacted a lawyer regarding a case and we had only a 1/2 an hour first discussion, I didn't like him and never contacted him again.

To my surprise, one year later, he sent me a registered letter saying that I owe him CHF 1050 for 2.8 hours of work (?), he claimed that this was the 3rd time he sent me the invoice to my email, and falsified some emails as "evidence". I am speechless and furious. We never agree on a fee and he didn't say in advance that he would charge. No documents were signed either.

I would have payed for his consultation, but considering the falsified emails and inflated hours worked I am leaning towards claiming that we never spoke and that I owe him nothing.

What would you recommend?
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  #30  
Old 18.08.2015, 20:45
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Speak to a different lawyer - as you are in Basel I recommend these guys with whom I have had good experience:

http://www.gmacg.com

HTH.
Nick
Thanks Nick!
I am actually in Zurich now, would this company still apply or do you know someone in Zurich?
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  #31  
Old 18.08.2015, 21:39
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

You could give them a call and ask. No idea.

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Thanks Nick!
I am actually in Zurich now, would this company still apply or do you know someone in Zurich?
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  #32  
Old 18.08.2015, 22:03
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Reminds me of the story of the doctor and the lawyer who met in a pub.

The doctor asked the lawyer, "do you friends ask you for professional advice all the time".

The lawyer replied "no, but they used to".

The doctor said "how did you stop them? I'm so annoyed by my friends asking for medical advice when we meet casually"

The lawyer said "simple, I bill them for all advice given".

The doctor said, "what an excellent idea. I'll do that too".

He came home to find an invoice for 800 CHF from the lawyer in his letterbox.
it's a funny joke, but I did exactly the same with my family and friends. makes my family vacations much more relaxing not having to help everybody for free with questions about their estates, neighbor disputes, employer problems, etc., etc., etc.



99% of the time that a client complains about getting a bill from a lawyer "after just one consultation", it's because they received perfectly sound legal advice that they simply did not like.
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  #33  
Old 18.08.2015, 23:00
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

Something I miss about living in North-America - you get your monies worth (or at least you did...)...I feel things are more straightforward there and more importantly, even if you don't get the best advice, you don't have the feeling that you got "robbed"...
Not very hopeful for the OP...but there is not really much he/she can do...
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Old 19.08.2015, 15:18
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Would this apply on my case? I contacted a lawyer regarding a case and we had only a 1/2 an hour first discussion, I didn't like him and never contacted him again.

To my surprise, one year later, he sent me a registered letter saying that I owe him CHF 1050 for 2.8 hours of work (?), he claimed that this was the 3rd time he sent me the invoice to my email, and falsified some emails as "evidence". I am speechless and furious. We never agree on a fee and he didn't say in advance that he would charge. No documents were signed either.

I would have payed for his consultation, but considering the falsified emails and inflated hours worked I am leaning towards claiming that we never spoke and that I owe him nothing.

What would you recommend?
Yes, what I wrote would also apply to you (with the exception that for a Basle lawyer the Moderationsausschuss of the Basle Bar Association would be the starting point, to get in contact: http://www.akbs.ch/d/kontakt/index.p...anchor=2110017).
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  #35  
Old 19.08.2015, 15:31
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Normal protocol when requesting professional services tends to be a consultation at an hourly rate which providing you then utilize said services is deducted from invoice. If in event you do not use services then the consultation is billed. That's how most firms I have worked for operate.
100% correct.

You have been provided a service over the phone and you are required to pay. Talking over the phone is a form of communication.

Black and white. No middle ground.

Pay.

Last edited by Jack of all trades.; 19.08.2015 at 15:32. Reason: my spelling SUCKS!!!!!!!!!
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Old 21.08.2015, 16:22
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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100% correct.

You have been provided a service over the phone and you are required to pay. Talking over the phone is a form of communication.

Black and white. No middle ground.

Pay.


I agree that one should pay for a service received, however there is a big difference when the professional cheats or tries to take advantage of the customer.


For everyone out there that TRULY thinks that their lawyer, or any other professional, is trying to take advantage of you, the process to follow is:


1. If you think it will help, talk over the phone (nothing in writing) about a settlement, a middle ground payment that is fair. Pay if you agree, if not


2. Don't pay the bills nor reply any correspondence to him or any collection agency. If the lawyer (or creditor) is serious they will have to send you a "payment order" this is the first stage of the official debt collection process in Switzerland.


3. Oppose to the payment order within 10 days. If the creditor really wants you money, he/she will have to file another claim showing supporting evidence of the debt.


4. If you get to this stage, you will be called to speak with the lawyer in front of a judge to find a friendly solution. At this stage, you have your best chance to get to a fair settlement if your reasons for not paying are valid in the eyes of the judge. Best of all, you do not need a lawyer, you can defend yourself in this process.


Worst case scenario you will have to pay the totality of the invoice plus 5% annual interest rate plus a small collection fee (CHF 70+ depending on the size of the debt).


Here is the debt collection process explained in detail and the further steps: http://www.debtcollectionlawyer.eu/d...on/switzerland


I hope this helps everyone out there not to take BS from unscrupulous people
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Old 26.08.2015, 17:59
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

Nobody can expect advice for free but my personal experience in our office dealing with law firms in Switzerland has convinced me that lawyers here are more money driven than bankers (quite a statement from a banker:-).

It has gone to a stage that I am afraid to call our law firms as a 5 min phone call ends up being a 0.6 hours (always the minimum billed) x 350fr item billed two months later on a list. A simple email is easily the same price or more and many have a tendency for unnecessary long mails that can be billed more. We once had one lawyer who was really taking the p*ss and nobody was able to have phone calls with him shorter than 20 minutes even if they tried. I felt i was part of a Monty Python show.
As an outsider you cannot win this game I am afraid. Best is to assume and try to avoid getting involved with lawyers.
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Old 26.08.2015, 23:38
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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It has gone to a stage that I am afraid to call our law firms as a 5 min phone call ends up being a 0.6 hours (always the minimum billed) x 350fr item billed two months later on a list. A simple email is easily the same price or more and many have a tendency for unnecessary long mails that can be billed more.
a lawyer is not a computer or a typist, he or she gets paid for using their brain. typing an e-mail, after all, is easy. thinking about what you are typing, and then looking at it from every possible angle you can imagine, and then re-thinking it, and then proofreading it, and then re-thinking it, etc., etc., etc.......

......takes time.



as a lawyer, every e-mail I write and every conversation I have can be construed to be legal advice. and every time I give legal advice, I risk being sued for malpractice. I also risk being sanctioned by the appropriate licensing authorities, depending upon how careless I might be - lawyers, after all, completely unlike bankers, are subject to rules of ethics.

in other words, I take my time before I write or speak, and when I was in private practice you can bet I charged for every minute my brain was turned on and engaged. if somebody objects to me taking my time, then they are free to proceed without my counsel, it doesn't offend me at all when people don't ask for my advice.
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  #39  
Old 27.08.2015, 07:53
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

So how does one get an estimate of what legal services will cost?

My experience with Swiss lawyers was that the office administrator could tell me an hourly rate, but could not give an estimate of costs - even just a rough idea - for a given task.

This is (one of) the reasons I am wary of engaging lawyers here - I don't know if I am getting into thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands.

Last edited by meloncollie; 27.08.2015 at 09:30.
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Old 27.08.2015, 08:24
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Re: Lawyer chaging for consulting meetings prior to a price negociation

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Would this apply on my case? I contacted a lawyer regarding a case and we had only a 1/2 an hour first discussion, I didn't like him and never contacted him again.

To my surprise, one year later, he sent me a registered letter saying that I owe him CHF 1050 for 2.8 hours of work (?), he claimed that this was the 3rd time he sent me the invoice to my email
Perhaps he charges per hour or part thereof (at 375CHF per hour - wow INKSPE), and is charging you a smaller amount for each "ignored" email.
Initial consultation: 375 CHF
1st email: 337.50 CHF
2nd email: 375.50 CHF

The payment breakdown should be in the invoice.

I would pay 375CHF, and then respond to him, explaining that you've not received any previous emails, and therefore you discount his claim for 2.8 hours, and have paid him for the initial consultation as full and final settlement.

The ball is then in his court to pursue you. If he's got any sense, he'll drop it there, because he'd have to prove you received the earlier emails. Proof of sending is not proof of receipt.
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