(Admin: this thread was split from a previous thread at http://www.englishforum.ch/showthread.php?p=577 )

hah hah - Yes that about sums it up. I'm amazed at the number of small, apparently useless shops scattered all over my town in seemingly random places that seem to stay in business whereas some 'essential' businesses don't seem to exist at all where I live, or shut down. There used to be a great 'off license' near me which shut down after about 6 months. Also there was a pretty good pizza takeaway around the corner (you could walk in and get a reasonably priced pizza within 10 mins) which lasted about the same period of time. There is now one grocery shop near the station which does stay open late but has terrible queues all the time and totally inadequate parking. Oh, and of couse it's closed on Sundays and public holidays.

I can only imagine that there must be a concerted attempt amongst established businesses to keep foreign competition out of here. It's a rich country that is woefully underdeveloped consumer-wise and UK companies like Tesco, Boots etc. could make a mint here. They'd wipe the floor with the local 'competition', give the economy a boost and Swiss consumers could get a taste of what the rest of the developed world has got used to. Instead of shoddy service, poorly designed and located stores, inconvenient opening hours and poor choice of goods.

Of course, that would require change and anything which changes Swiss society from the way it was 'in the good old days' (seemingly about 20-25 years ago) must be bad and therefore resisted...... After all, it CAN'T get any better than it is, right?

Gav

Interestingly I had the new head of the local branch of kantonal bank come visit a couple of days ago, and I dont know how we got onto it but the general topic of small businesses. He said that the going was tough for the "dorflädli" since the COOPs etc had upped their competition etc etc. I could see the "who is this foreign infiltrator" look on his face when I said.. about time too and why dont they do something useful like offer better service and longer opening hours. Daniel

Well, to be fair the larger stores hardly provide a model for a good consumer experience either.

There's a large new out-of-town Co-op near me which is probably the closest I've yet seen to a 'real' supermarket in Switzerland. However, it still suffers from limited choice and has a ticket/barrier carpark (albeit with a generous 'free' parking period). And at least the spaces are quite wide.


I see that Aldi are having problems with suppliers in Switzerland not wanting to stock them due to pressure from the big existing Swiss chains threatening to cancel their orders. That is just absolutely outrageous. It wouldn't be allowed in any other modern European country but here it's par for the course.

Many Swiss people even defend that practice - apparently it's much better to be ripped off and get a shoddy service from a Swiss-owned business than to get a good price and good service from a foreign owned company .. even though both companies provide jobs and contracts to Swiss workers and suppliers. A crazy mentality that will hurt this country in the long run.


Gav

Hi Gav,

A few months ago I went into the new Coop at Volketswil (ZH) and it was huge. Everything was organised and guess what - the aisles were even marked. That was amazing. It was so like a non-Swiss supermarket where everything's such a maze and unless you know the shop, you usually end up going around in circles looking for a particular item that they may not stock. This place was well planned out with plenty of space and straight aisles. Even the ethnic sections were marked very clearly and organised by origin and they had the most amount of stuff I've ever seen in any Coop.

I hear that this is the direction Coop is going to and will start changing pre-existing ones. I do hope so though I can't imagine them closing the city ones in order to re-order the shelves.

I used to go to the big one in Oerlikon but this one in Volketswil wins hands down.
8)

I think we would all like to have that fantasy. Unfortunately there are a lot of reasons why Tesco, Boots etc could not do well here. There are just too many barriers of entry for them. For example, with high fixed costs restricted opening hours would be a killer for them. That's not all. Ever noticed how supermarket staff are always in the way packing the shelves during the day, and that the lights are out after trading hours are over? Tesco et al would normally employ packers to restock shelves during the night, which is normal practice, but such employment would normally be prohibited here.

Then we've got some food labelling laws. Check out this:

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissin...05&sid=5609744

It talks about the Cassis-de-Dijon principle which Switzerland is yet to adopt - this is also responsible for making life difficult for foreign competition.

True, but I think the real issue at stake here is to reform the myriad of laws and restrictions which prevent the market operating freely. Once these barriers to entry are removed, foreign competition will be able to move in, and yes, they probably will wipe the floor with the existing companies. Naturally Migros and co-op want to fight to keep the existing restrictions in place, because they know that this makes it unattractive for anyone else to try.

Yes, this is often at the heart of the matter. I think to be fair on the Swiss, many of them do want change, and are terribly frustrated, just as we are. Often these are the Swiss that have travelled and seen a bit more of the world. I've often encountered Swiss who will argue the "ultra-Swiss" point of view (i.e. this is paradise, it's not possible to improve the perfect) even when they don't believe it themselves. I guess we can't blame them, they are raised with an elitest attitude and constantly told that everything they do is superior.

Trying to be positive, I have noticed an improvement in my local Migros. I still absolutely hate going there, but the range of products has improved, and the fruit has become fresher and better presented. Gone are the days (like from a few months ago) when selling rotten fruit seemed to be the norm. I do think it is a shame that they have to be threatened by competition to smarten their act.

Someone actually told me that this business of having to pay for parking is not a choice of the supermarkets, but free parking is not allowed - basically they are told to charge for parking. The idea is to encourage the hordes to carry all their family shopping on the tram through the blinding snow and rain... I think I'll expand on this in another post you wrote.

Well actually I'm not sure if is illegal. Two competing companies getting together and agreeing to rig prices is one thing (take a look at the UK for some good examples of consumer rip-offs), but if you refuse to buy from a supplier or advertise with someone based on the fact that your competition does so, it's your right to buy from whomever you choose. I agree with you though, it is nasty for the little guy. If the little guy has more suppliers to choose from, it's not a problem for him - but maybe in this case he doesn't?

Yes, unfortunately most members of the general public have a very poor grasp of what is good for the economy. In most democracies so called "experts" make the general recommendations, and elected politicians (who are "supposed" to be more informed than the public) make the decisions. Here everyone gets to be the expert and the decision maker, with often disasterous consequences. Of course the voting public will defend this right, and probably disagree with what I say. After all they are taught in school about the wonderful advantages of a direct democracy, but seldom about the disadvantages. I've even has some Swiss defend my allegations of poor economic growth and continued stagnation with "Yes, but who says that economic growth is really important". Ordinarily one could just dismiss such ignorance, but these people will directly vote on such issues, rather than elect someone else to do it.


And of course in a country where patriotism plays a very important role, there will always be the tendancy to protect the inefficencies of "local" companies without the realisation that eventually this practice will hurt everyone. After all how many Swiss do you know that put up with so much rubbish from Swisscom because they can't bring themselves to go to foreign competition. Do I want to have a telecoms provider that is 66% owned by the government? I don't think so...

Mark

if you complain about shopping now, especially groceries, then go back 10 years. Choice...less...price....higher - but one thing has remained and that's the fact that somehow the Swissies "make" you need to shop every couple of days.

My nearest Coop in the Seedam centre has aisles marked. Fab.

Another thing to note is stock rotation. Having done my student stint in Presto (now Safeway and now sold on again), I know about this. Check dates on perishables....!

If you live close to the border, go over. Simple as that.

And the funky little stores, bars, cafes, etc. Yes....how to they work? I know a clothes store that I've never seen anyone come out of or go into! Wow.

Indeed - I recently was buying a sandwich and drink at my local Co-op 'Pronto' on my way to catching the train. The shop is right next to the station and since I had six minutes to spare and the shop was relatively empty, no problem I thought......

Well, after queuing for four minutes - the usual story, staff taking forever to take payment, shoppers whipping out 200CHF notes to pay for 1.30 worth of stuff - when it came time for me to pay, the sandwich turned out to be expired. Apparently they hadn't got around to checking the stock and putting out the fresh stuff yet ... It's not like anyone might be buying sandwiches at a 'convenience' store in the morning, is it?

I put down my stuff and walked straight out, just about catching the train. That was the third time I've done that in that store, so I haven't been back there since.



Gav

Hi Gav,

Speaking of expired stuff, I once had an experience in Scotland, in a town which bears my surname. I bought a strawberry tart and when I bit into it it tasted very strange. I checked the packet - it has expired by more than a month, and this was something with a shelf life of only a few days! I was disgusted!

I'm also reminded by the fact that you put your stuff down and walked out by something that happened to me when I first came to Zurich 5 years ago. I bought something in co-op, only to find out that the 50% off price (which was quite large) was only available to supercard holders. When the check-out girl told me this I told her that I didn't want (i felt that I had been mislead, but I could have looked closer at the fine print). She then asked me if I could take the product back to where I got it from (which was right at the back of the store). I thought I must have misheard her and asked her to repeat herself, but she was insisting that *I* take the product back so as not to inconvenience anyone else. I was a little taken aback and refused (after all, she worked there, not me!) and she proceeded to start throwing my shopping around as she passed it over the scanner, really have a tantrum about it. I stood there in a state of disbelief, and looked to the others in the queue behind me expecting to see the same look of shock on their faces. Instead they all scowled at me - it was clear that it was me that was in the wrong...

Yeah - that 50% off thing nearly caught me the first time too. As it happened, I was going to buy the product anyway so I just took it at full price.

Personally, I feel no guilt about just leaving stuff down and walking out when they can't serve me in a timely manner. If I'm close enough to put it back (standing beside the shelves), I'll do so. I will also walk back to the refrigerated section in the case of chilled or frozen foods but that's it. Generally the goods are placed on the nearest flat surface and I just walk out.

At the end of the day until I pay for it it's their problem and so long as I leave it somewhere in their shop, I don't see that I've done anything untoward.

Anyway, most shops here seem to place their wares randomly around the store in the first place so it's not like I'm making their disorganisation any worse.


Gav

I'm also quite happy to put things down and leave if things aren't moving.

I was recently in this situation at the health food store in the Shopville, patiently waiting in line to pay for my bio-breakfast. The customer in front and the assistant were discussing a product and the customer was writing an address down.

OK, tum-tee-tum. Patience, patience.

As they were rounding up with Vielen Dank/Bitte Schön/Merci/Gern geschehen, I took a step forward to place my müsli on the counter. As I did so, the assistant said "Also ..." and then starting scanning the huge pile of products in front of the other customer. I realised that he hadn't even started serving her properly yet.

OK, one, two, buckle-my-shoe. Getting slightly gritty now. So I started preparing the right change to pay for my müsli.

Beep. Money changed hands, followed by another round of thank you/you're welcome/not at all in various languages. As the customer had not initiated the round of good bye / have a nice day in various languages and dialects, the assistant still didn't acknowledge me.

OK. Patience depleted. It's been five minutes, I'm going to be late for work and all I want to do is eat this yoghurt.

The customer then produced her frequent bio-flyer card for stamping and the ensuing delight of the assistant that she had such a card pushed me over the edge.

I politely said excuse me and got a frosty look. Next I slammed the CHF 5.90 on the table with only a little too much force, held up my breakfast and said "Birchermüsli". I pointed to the money and said "five ninety". Smiling, I wished them both a nice day and left the shop.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have resorted to violent behaviour in the health food shop, but it's a busy time of day for everyone. In other situations, polite assistants would have asked the other customer to wait for a moment, perhaps call a colleague to open another till, or even suggest I move to another line.

(Oh yeah, and I made sure they couldn't complain about bloody foreigners by doing all my ranting in Züritüütsch, heh.)

Yeah, what DO people manage to talk about when they are at the cashier? All too often people seem to be having protracted discussions over a couple of tins of peas or a cabbage.

For me it seems quite simple: Bring goods to cashier, cashier scans them, tells you what they cost, you pay cashier.

Not too complicated, not a lot that should be able to go wrong .. Yet time and time again I find myself in stationary queues because the person buying the goods seems to have some sort of need to enter into a complicated debate over some point or other. I guess it's not all down to bad service - awkward customers seem to be more prevalent here too.


My worst experience was at the airport in Zuerich waiting for a flight to Paris one Friday evening. This was when Swissair ran the whole terminal so you just picked any line. I was there about 1hr10mins before the flight was due to leave, got in the line and waited .... and waited .... and waited.

Just about every idiot in there wanted to have some sort of debate with the checkin agent. Fifteen mins before departure time I was still 4 people from the front of the queue. I barged my way to the agent and got directed to the emergency checkin ... which I had to queue at as well because so many others were in the same situation! I ended up missing the flight because they gave my seat away.

That said, the last time I flew from that airport there was a representative going along the queue for the Swiss checkin, answering queries. I asked if I could use the automatic checkin with my eTicket and lo and behold, I just put the card in and got my seat booking immediately. Things go soooooo much easier when you take the people out of the loop :-)

Now, don't even get me started about the 'Euro Airport' at Basel. (fume)


Gav

Hi Gav,

I guess you learnt two golden rules of travel the hard way -

1. If late for a flight don't stand in line - go to the first class section and explain that you are at risk of missing your flight if you stand in line - the airline don't want you to miss your flight either (one would hope)
2. Travel on an e-ticket and check in yourself. Options for doing this are much better these days.

I particulaly like the check-in facility the evening before your flight. Unusally civilised!

Anyway - we were talking about shopping. Diem - don't think for a second that you delivering your "courtesies" in Swiss-German made any difference whatsoever. You are a foreigner and no matter how hard you try it will always be obvious. They will mutter under their breath about you in any case. (side note: I read in a recent survey of 1,000 Swiss that 30% worry about foreigners).

I can understand that such pleasantries can be frustrating, but by the same token I sometime appreciate that I at the very least get a "hello" and "goodbye" when I arrive at the register. Having lived in Germany you were lucky to even get eye contact sometimes. The Swiss at least feel an obligation to go through at least the motions of friendliness. Naturally nobody wants to wait while someone is having a chat, but it's hard when there's some old biddy fussing around in front of you.

Here's my pet hate at the register - people who don't get their wallets/purses ready. I seem to notice this more with women than men, and I'm sure I'm going to get pounced on for that, but that's just what I see. Anyway, it goes like this. They wait until the very last minute after the total has appeared or they have been asked for money. Then they finish whatever it is they have in their hands, and then begin digging in the handbag for the purse. Then they dig a bit more and finally produce it (but first they have to put away whatever it was they working on - in their handbag) Then they open the purse and have to fumble through various compartments for the exact money. waiting... waiting... waiting... Finally they produce the money and hand it over. But then, almost immediately they put their purse away, and proceed to pack their shopping (ok that's not their fault that the cashier doesn't pack it for them!!), but then the change arrives and the whole digging for the purse business starts all over again. Drives me nuts...

But I guess that's the fun part about not living on a desert island...

Mark

P.S. forgot to add - it's a shame that people in shops seem to have a simple rule that they can only look at one person at a time, and they may not acknowledge your presence until the last person has left. A simple glance and a smile to say "I'll be with you shortly" does wonders for the frayed nerves of someone who is in a hurry and feels that they are being ignored.

Damn my fiery red hair! The only place I don't look like a foreigner is Ireland. But as soon as I start to speak ...

It's the same in the UK. However now when I'm in the UK I automatically say hello and goodbye in shops. It just makes the assistants nervous.

actually I believe that, if you're really late for a flight, you can go with your travel documents directly to the gate - certainly, I've been told to do this at Heathrow when running late....

Well now Mark this is blatant sexism and in Switzerland downright untrue. Everybody knows that the average Swiss man carries a wallet with a little zip up compartment on the outside in which he keeps his change And while the Swiss are so precise it is a personal slight to not give the correct change or something close to it such as 102.35 instead of 22.35.

And think this is something just for the old - forget it. Have you not been in the queue when the person in front of you is having a conversation on their mobile and must gesticulate wildly preventing them from actually starting the process of finding their purse/wallet.

Richard

*cough cough cough*

I always have my money ready at the checkout! I'm also one of the people who will put my EC card in waaay before theyr'e done scanning the items, to save other people some time.
And before you start complaining that I shouldn't use EC, I would use cash more often if there were more bank machines. In Greifensee, where I live, I think there is 1. It's no where near the grocery store ...

As far as cashiers .. I'm beginning to think it depends on the store chain. Last night was my 2nd time shopping at CarreFour in Dietlikon. The cashiers seem to have a grand old time talking to each other, and hardly paying attention to what they're actually doing. I watched the young lady while she went through all the groceries of the guy in front of me, I was ready to tell her off and suggest she concentrate because I'm sure she didn't get any of the items on the first scan (she was too busy looking over at her friend so she didn't notice how she needed to scan the items)
It's a big store, the ailes are labled, but I still prefer Volkiland.

Of course, Coop really isn't as good as Migros I will go out of my way to visit our crappy little Migros just to pick up the items that I think Migros does a better job of making. (Ankezopf, budget cottage cheese, fasnachts chuechli, chaeschuechli ...)

Just thought I'd let you know that I did my Christmas shopping last night at midnight. With so much to do during the day during this period it was nice to be able to shift this task to a time when it was convenient for me, and also to avoid the rush of doing it during the day.

Since you are all falling off your chairs at the moment and wondering how and where I did this, I guess I should point out that I'm on holiday in Sydney at the moment . I should also point out that nobody is complaining about having 24 hour shopping prior to Christmas, and that the staff in the shops are paid extra for working in shifts, so they don't seem to have a problem with it either. It's just one of those things - I had to do it many years ago when I worked in retail as well, and I didn't think anything of it then either.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Mark

please forgive me if been discussed before, simply couldn't find the answer: WHY? why have these restricted hours? what is the reason/tradition/motivation behind this preventing people from shopping in Switzerland?

largely Trade Unions to my understanding. Anyone confirm?