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  #61  
Old 30.07.2013, 18:23
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Thinking that somebody cares about the views on jaywalking of a Brit with a colourful, but violent, imagination is nothing but self-delusional.
Not true, several of the regular neighbours have managed and successfully completed it upon observation.

We chuckle and embrace at how liberating it is. They are older folk in my neck of the words, one old doris revealed it made her feel young again. I like to do my part for the community.

But that was the least important example listed, as this rigid lack of common sense does not necessarily effect other people. The other examples do and each incidence of correction and education allows that person to become a better member of society. Like the cyclist at the BP at Bahnof Wollishofen, often pops in around 6:30 and will never attempt to cut in line in his life again I imagine.

Thinking people do not learn from these corrections, and then go on being better self aware people is rather self delusional indeed.
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  #62  
Old 30.07.2013, 18:32
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Really? The low corporate taxes are the reason so many multi national companies have their head quarters here instead of escaping the country like in other places. Same goes for really, really rich people who move here. This and tourism are a key factors in Switzerlands financial success given they have very little to export (no timber, oil, etc).
Eh, you mean the rich ones who pay less taxes than I do? And tourism isn't a recent development. It started about 150 years ago. The multinatinals will disappear as fast as they have shown up as soon as they sense lower taxes and therefore bigger profits elsewhere. They are not the backbone of Swiss economy. The creators of Swiss wealth are the small and medium sized companies. Most of them have been around for well over fifty years. I repeat my question: Where's the benefit for the normal citizen in the development of the last twenty years?
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Old 30.07.2013, 18:43
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Not true, several of the regular neighbours have managed and successfully completed it upon observation.

We chuckle and embrace at how liberating it is. They are older folk in my neck of the words, one old doris revealed it made her feel young again. I like to do my part for the community.
Sounds like there must be some strange hippie-thing going on in Kilchberg

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But that was the least important example listed, as this rigid lack of common sense does not necessarily effect other people. The other examples do and each incidence of correction and education allows that person to become a better member of society.

Like the cyclist at the BP at Bahnof Wollishofen, often pops in around 6:30 and will never attempt to cut in line in his life again I imagine.
Well, in your opinion! I see the queue-jumping people in Migros as form of entertainment! If they stop that, they become a worse member of society!

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Thinking people do not learn from these corrections, and then go on being better self aware people is rather self delusional indeed.
I correct myself: Maybe one or two will change their behaviour, but it has for sure no broader influence.

And if trying to 'educate' the right sort of person, maybe you will one day decide to change your behaviour and oppinion on 'corrections'
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  #64  
Old 30.07.2013, 18:56
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Sounds like there must be some strange hippie-thing going on in Kilchberg
Oh no, I am just slowly helping iron out some of the wrinkles and learn to relax a little. Basically, dropping the most pathetic of "rules" everyone fears for more life fulfillment. They're coming round to it.


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Well, in your opinion! I see the queue-jumping people in Migros as form of entertainment! If they stop that, they become a worse member of society!
How is it entertaining to have someone deem themselves more important than you to wait their turn and deem those around them as not respected enough to treat how they would like to be treated? For me, it is the rudest thing someone can do aside from spitting directly in someones face.


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I correct myself: Maybe one or two will change their behaviour, but it has for sure no broader influence.

And if trying to 'educate' the right sort of person, maybe you will one day decide to change your behaviour and opinion on 'corrections'
Well it was mostly tongue in cheek, i.e. the influence on society as a whole, not the reality of these everyday issues. But I beg to differ, I have created a few scenes in which I am sure someone witnessing would not want to be the focus of. That in turn has a knock on effect. But even if its just one person, I have helped.

I doubt it, no one has done so yet, because normally they know they are in the wrong obviously. They're just used to no one being direct and saying something about it because the Swiss would rather not have a confrontation. I have little fear of that.
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Old 30.07.2013, 18:58
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

The fact that the Swiss are unabashed at calling out anti-social behaviour without the shillyshallying precursor of "Would you possibly mind, if I may say so..." is testament to the fact they are not afraid of being beaten, stabbed or shot here in retaliation.

Where I grew up, if someone "yelled" at you for wheeling your bike along the side of the road, they would probably wake up several weeks later in intensive care.

Just on the subject of "yelling", is it proper, dictionary defined "yelling" as in shouting at the top of your lungs? Wouldn't that be a bit "unSwiss" in a sauna or along the side of a road?

Or is it just a disgruntled snappy comment?

Hand on heart I have never heard any Swiss person shouting like a banshee no matter how pissed off.
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Old 30.07.2013, 19:36
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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The fact that the Swiss are unabashed at calling out anti-social behaviour without the shillyshallying precursor of "Would you possibly mind, if I may say so..." is testament to the fact they are not afraid of being beaten, stabbed or shot here in retaliation.

Where I grew up, if someone "yelled" at you for wheeling your bike along the side of the road, they would probably wake up several weeks later in intensive care.

Just on the subject of "yelling", is it proper, dictionary defined "yelling" as in shouting at the top of your lungs? Wouldn't that be a bit "unSwiss" in a sauna or along the side of a road?

Or is it just a disgruntled snappy comment?

Hand on heart I have never heard any Swiss person shouting like a banshee no matter how pissed off.
True we don't shout much but we call somebody behaving like an idiot an idiot
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  #67  
Old 30.07.2013, 19:52
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

Many of the badly behaved children I see are not yelling in Swiss German. Just sayin'...
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Old 30.07.2013, 19:57
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Many of the badly behaved children I see are not yelling in Swiss German. Just sayin'...
Do you have language (home made) statistics? Genuine question.
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Old 30.07.2013, 21:35
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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How is it entertaining to have someone deem themselves more important than you to wait their turn and deem those around them as not respected enough to treat how they would like to be treated? For me, it is the rudest thing someone can do aside from spitting directly in someones face.
Well, the queue-jumping itself is not that fascinating, but the reactions to it or "corrections" as you call it. Or as the OP phrased it:

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They apply an absolute zero tolerance and will approach you in a way other people would usually approach someone who keep repeating the same bad behavior and you've simply had enough.[...]

They skip the "friendly reminder" step and skip straight to "don't do that, that is unacceptable!!"



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I doubt it, no one has done so yet, because normally they know they are in the wrong obviously. They're just used to no one being direct and saying something about it because the Swiss would rather not have a confrontation. I have little fear of that.
Most might not react to it, but I wouldn't mess around with strangers regularly.

In 2012 in the city of Zürich there have been 367 incidents of 'heavy violence' (killings / rapes / committings of grievious bodily harm etc.) and 6952 cases of 'lesser violence' (assault / affray etc.). Combined that's an average of about 20 violence related incidents per day.

Most probably none of these incidents have happened between a tax expert and a cyclist in commuting traffic in Kilchberg, but once has to be the first time

Of course Zürich is not as dangerous as other big cities, but I have seen some wackos and their toys out there.
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Old 30.07.2013, 21:36
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

Talking about kids here: my experience. Swiss kids of my neighbors never greet me (I mean not the ones of one family, but all of them), even though they know I live there etc. I say Hoi or Hallo and never get an answer, just an intense and indifferent look.... Really weird and disappointing for me, because it never happens back home, when I am there, I always get smiles and friendly answers. Don't know if they greet others, though. Maybe it's me.
I haven't noticed other "bad" things, must add, they seem just normal kids otherwise.
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Old 30.07.2013, 21:41
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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my experience: Swiss kids of my neighbors never greet me (I mean not the ones of one family, but all of them), even though they know I live there etc. I say Hoi or Hallo and never get an answer, just an intense and indifferent look.... Really weird and disappointing for me, because it never happens back home, when I am there, I always get smiles and friendly answers. Don't know if they greet others, though. Maybe it's me.
That's just given me an uncomfortable reminder that the kids around our place greet me with "Gruezi" no matter how many times I try it with "Hoi" or "Hey!". Jesus, it makes me feel OLD!

Maybe I should have a word with their mums and dads to slacken off the parenting skills a tad...
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  #72  
Old 30.07.2013, 21:46
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

Well, I WISHED to behave Swiss yesterday! The young chap, who entered the physical therapy practice and took a seat next to me, really got on my nerves. He slurped, smacked and snipped, as he methodically bit each of his fingernails! I honestly wanted to say;

" En Guete"


but I said nothing.
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  #73  
Old 30.07.2013, 21:55
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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That's just given me an uncomfortable reminder that the kids around our place greet me with "Gruezi" no matter how many times I try it with "Hoi" or "Hey!". Jesus, it makes me feel OLD!

Maybe I should have a word with their mums and dads to slacken off the parenting skills a tad...
If you are in your 30s or 40s (or even 20s) you probably look ancient to them. I remember what I thought of a cousin of 26 when I was 9: old, really really old! Is it possible to be that old?
Anyway, the good thing is the parents are sweet and communicative, so I don't care about the little brats. Just started to believe it was not common to greet people when you're a child or something.
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  #74  
Old 30.07.2013, 22:00
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Most probably none of these incidents have happened between a tax expert and a cyclist in commuting traffic in Kilchberg, but once has to be the first time

Of course Zürich is not as dangerous as other big cities, but I have seen some wackos and their toys out there.
Lets live and hope for some excitement
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Old 30.07.2013, 23:03
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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- How taking it upon yourself to ignore everyone and decide to be the next served customer will result in abuse, raised voices, shoving, and potentially a smack in the mouth. It is rude, do not do it, even if this is YOUR country.
With such stories I always suspect, that the
problem is not that "the Swiss" jump the queue, but that "the foreigners" don't know how to queue "properly" (i.e. the way people queue in Switzerland).

If you try to form a queue behind somebody standing at the counter of a bakery and leave too much space (because you have a strange perception of personal space;-)) you will not be considered part of the queue by "the Swiss". Consequently they will "ignore" you and join the queue (before you).

You have to notice, that in shops there often isn't a physical queue at all, but a invisible one. To join such a invisible queue you need to stand in front of the counter (and not trying to form a queue behind somebody standing at the counter). This could be further reason why "the Swiss" that you perceive as jumping the queue are ignoring you.
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  #76  
Old 30.07.2013, 23:32
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Fully agree. I dont see myself as a guest here. Im not an asylum seeking immigrant, im a specialized worker with a permanent work work permit, paying taxes and contributing to the country. Part of Switzerlands success is bringing in qualified work force from abroad.
> Are you a Swiss citizen ? No ? Then you are a guest worker
-- which is far nicer than the old title "strange-worker" Fremd-Arbeiter

> Qualified ? qualified applies to many, but a majority of the immigrants to Switzerland between 1945 and right now either are simply average are even not qualified. But quite many of the not-qualified people are urgently needed, as somebody has to take away the waste-bags etc

> Why does Switzerland, more than ever in fact, need immigrants on all levels ? Very simply to replace the gradually retiring baby-boomers. As the number of the anti-baby-pillers is not sufficient

>

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Is it a coincidence that the vast majority of people who claim to have been shouted at live in Zurich? (In a proportion that is significantly greater than the population difference to the rest of Switzerland).

I worked there for a few years, but I certainly wouldn't want to live there.
I live in Zürich but neither get shouted/yelled at nor do I see people who do so. You might however realize that every 6th inhabitant of Switzerland lives in the Greater Zürich area

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Old 30.07.2013, 23:37
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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> Are you a Swiss citizen ? No ? Then you are a guest worker
Come on, you are not new in that language business, you know very well that the two words guest/Gast just don't have the same connotation and are not even that good synonyms either. There is NO WAY to explain how we understand Gast to English speakers without a good five years semantic master degree.
Discussion based on this translation issue are absolutely pointless with non-linguists. Sorry if it sounds harsh and elitist, but we've been through that quite a few times already.
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Old 30.07.2013, 23:44
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Come on, you are not new in that language business, you know very well that the two words guest/Gast just don't have the same connotation and are not even that good synonyms either. There is NO WAY to explain how we understand Gast to English speakers without a good five years semantic master degree.
Discussion based on this translation issue are absolutely pointless with non-linguists. Sorry if it sounds harsh and elitist, but we've been through that quite a few times already.

Perfectly correct, but somebody reacting so angrily to a "title" anyway completeley démodé provokes jokes I mean, when getting around I rather seldom here people using the old expressions Fremdarbeiter + Gastarbeiter. The word used nowadays is IMMIGRANTEN or MIGRANTEN

But I hope that he, if qualified, does not feel just accepted but more or less welcome
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Old 31.07.2013, 00:09
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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This is not true, we have taught the Swiss a lot and continuing to do so, which will benefit the citizens, the country and the world greatly.

Examples:

- How taking it upon yourself to ignore everyone and decide to be the next served customer will result in abuse, raised voices, shoving, and potentially a smack in the mouth. It is rude, do not do it, even if this is YOUR country.

- I don't care if you have a tray of yoghurts. You work here, I shop here. I am customer, you are employee. I am trying to decide what yoghurt I want and will take as long as I want. You bash me, stand infront of me, or pretend I am not here whilst you stack like crazed house acid heads will result in the same treatment you'd get for cutting line (see above). Manners please.

- Haha, yes, elbows in the face. Feels good doesn't it? Oh, I am the bad guy, oh i am the horrible foreigner. Well, you know, letting people off before you get on might prevent this. It's common sense you planks. People can't walk through people, and doors are only so wide. I want off, you want on, clearly more space on when let me off. Do you guys go to school? Crikey.

Have you noticed improvements yet? Definitely been improvements in Kilchberg these last 2 years.
As Switzerland since the 1958ies imported teachers, that they taught people is rather normal

Who is ignoring everybody ?
who decides to be the next served customer ?

most shop employees are not Swiss nationals -- at least not in urban areas

to let people out of trains, trams and buses is what is taught by parents and teachers always. Things have deteriorated and a rich chap in Herrliberg says that this is the influence of the foreigners and of the EU

I know Kilchberg fairly well, but Kilchberg as most of Zürich Southwest and Zürich SW Suburbia according to ZVV is stagnating so that all expansion for the moment is put on hold. Kilchberg rail-station still looks as in 1960. The bus-lines are the same as years ago. True, the share of foreigners in Kilchberg is relatively low. You may correctly say that Kilchberg has been a wealthy and nice town for a full century and full of oldworldliness, which would be correct,
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Old 31.07.2013, 00:20
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Re: How the swiss deal with incorrect behavior from strangers

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Really? The low corporate taxes are the reason so many multi national companies have their head quarters here instead of escaping the country like in other places. Same goes for really, really rich people who move here. This and tourism are a key factors in Switzerlands financial success given they have very little to export (no timber, oil, etc).
Switzerland exports
- engineering products
- precision instruments
- chemicals
- pharmaceuticals
- watches and related products
- chocolates
- cheese
- wines
- Rivella
- textiles (still, even if no longer as in the past)
- ----------
inbound tourism is the mainstay nr 2 of the Swiss economy.

interesting in regard to really rich people is that quite many of them do not really give preference to taxheaven cantons but take residence in relatively unfavourable cantons like Zürich, Luzern, Basel, Schaffhausen, which shows that are not really what much of the media says they were
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