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Old 03.10.2013, 13:17
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Oh, I'd also have to add another CHF 200+ for the cost of the sitter*, without whom I cannot leave the house for 4 hours needed in order to get to the into the city to do some bricks-and-mortar shopping.
When spending CHF 200+ on a babysitter for a few hours, one should seek the problem in their spending habits, rather than Swiss prices.
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:23
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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When spending CHF 200+ on a babysitter for a few hours, one should seek the problem in their spending habits, rather than Swiss prices.
Oh well, they can obviously spend that much for a babysitter, because they earn that much. Of course people like this forget that they earn that much because others pay for it.
Why don't you just start a new iniative? Propose a general cutback on wages of 20%. In return the prices in this country are cutback for 20% as well.
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:24
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Oh well, they can obviously spend that much for a babysitter, because they earn that much.
Except she can't (or would rather not, in this instance), which is why she shops online rather than hiring a dogsitter for four hours and going off to spend a fortune in Zurich.

Do keep up!
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  #64  
Old 03.10.2013, 13:28
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Oh, I'd also have to add another CHF 200+ for the cost of the sitter*, without whom I cannot leave the house for 4 hours needed in order to get to the into the city to do some bricks-and-mortar shopping.
Just out of curiousity, why can't you take your dog shopping with you? I see plenty of people doing it.

Alternatively, why couldn't you leave your dog home alone for 4 hours?

The above would seem to indicate your lifestyle is extremely restricted by your dog(s)... so just curious why it affects you so much?

EDIT - Just read DB's post below. Understood.

Last edited by Richdog; 03.10.2013 at 13:38.
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:29
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

As I value my free time, I believe the overall cheapest way to shop for food in Switzerland is from Migros or CoOp bought online. I can arrange delivery late in the evening. I could give up half a day & actually go shopping however the saving would only be in the region of 50 CHF or 12.50 per hour, somewhat less after car expenses. However if I actually go shopping the cost will be more as extra purchases will also be made, especially if I go with the GF

The great thing about working in Switzerland is people earn enough money so they can choose how to spend there leisure time.
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  #66  
Old 03.10.2013, 13:31
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Just out of curiousity, why can't you take your dog shopping with you? I see plenty of people doing it.
Meloncollie has several dogs - and they're rescue dogs with histories.

There's a good reason why she employs a sitter who knows what she's doing - and why she only employs her when she absolutely has to (and shops online the rest of the time).
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:35
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

I find it a bit strange that people find service bad everywhere with every situation in Switzerland.

I have had bad service here and there and the result was that I never went back, or I cancelled an order but I could count those experiences on one hand since I've been here (150 years give or take ).

If I had consistently bad service everywhere from every possible service-provider and shop, I think I would have to have a long look at myself and the manner in which I deal with people.
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  #68  
Old 03.10.2013, 13:43
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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I kind of get annoyed by the Amazon, Starbucks, Zalando etc... that do sell low products/services at a very low price to swiss-resident population but do not pay TAXES in CH for the infrastructure they are using. All taxes are paid in Luxembourg or Ireland. They should pay their share of local taxes as well to participate to the cost of the infrastructure.
I want to support the local economy and it annoys me to see Amazon and alike kill local businesses like bookshops.
Just gonna take a stand for my country . . . .. We need the money
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:43
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Bottom-line is enjoying a better living standard (low criminality rate, transport infrastructure, environment,...) has also a price that you need to pay if you want to enjoy it.
Life in Paris or London isn't really "cheaper" and not sure everything is better.
The "customer service" discussion: I had very good experiences and also very bad experiences in Switzerland...but not to the point to say it's crap here. I spend about 2-3 months/year in the US and although things are cheaper I'm not sure I'm experiencing a much better service in the shops (or do you mean the mechanical "hi how're doing today sir"?).

But I have the impression some expats are wired this way: better service= cheaper products.
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:49
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Seriously Meloncollie, you are applying your own lifestyle choice to being to purchase goods and services?
No, I'm being a rational consumer.

The cost of a good to me is not only the price of the item, but also the cost to obtain that item. To me, any bricks-and-mortar purchase has to be weighed against the cost of getting out of the house.

Which is why I buy so much online.

I may decide it's worth it to pop for the sitter in order to see the upcoming production of Faust at the Operhaus. Or for a rare outing to the Viaduckt market, where there are things on offer that I cannot get anyplace else.

But to purchase a book for 4 times the Amazon price? Which might not be available? No, not worth it.

In fact, very few things are worth the cost to me of buying bricks-and-mortar.

The total cost of an item includes more than the price. What those extraneous factors may be, and how they will influence perception of value and purchasing decisions, will vary by the individual.

Thank doG for Amazon!


Gotta run - off to the Tierklinik, another Swiss service I value highly, and happily pay for.

(But the treats the dogs will get as a reward for good exam-room behavior were bought online from Germany - because the brand I favor is not available here.)
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Old 03.10.2013, 13:52
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Oh well, they can obviously spend that much for a babysitter, because they earn that much. Of course people like this forget that they earn that much because others pay for it.
Why don't you just start a new iniative? Propose a general cutback on wages of 20%. In return the prices in this country are cutback for 20% as well.
Your assumption that the Swiss wages are in line with costs is flawed. There are plenty of examples of costs being 3x the foreign alternative, yet I don't see wages coming in at 3x. That's the disparity, along with the "quality" dogma that needs adjusting. Especially when adjusting for the market wage commanded by a "foreign", "female" or otherwise somehow "lesser" candidate.

Yes, there are issues with the assumptions in the index, such as disparity and distribution, but this is somewhat telling. when measuring for domestic purchasing power, Switzerland is coming in at over 30th in the world.
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Old 03.10.2013, 14:05
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Bottom-line is enjoying a better living standard (low criminality rate, transport infrastructure, environment,...) has also a price that you need to pay if you want to enjoy it.
Life in Paris or London isn't really "cheaper" and not sure everything is better.
The "customer service" discussion: I had very good experiences and also very bad experiences in Switzerland...but not to the point to say it's crap here. I spend about 2-3 months/year in the US and although things are cheaper I'm not sure I'm experiencing a much better service in the shops (or do you mean the mechanical "hi how're doing today sir"?).

But I have the impression some expats are wired this way: better service= cheaper products.

Cosmopolitan Switzerland is not better enough though. A lot of expats have the illusion that Switzerland is miles better, the truth is that it is more or less the same.

The crime rate is even lower in other parts of Europe, but that is conveniently forgotten. I would argue that the transport infrastructure (when it comes to goods) isnt as good. 2-lane highways means the occasional traffic jam is much more significant. The absence of rumble strips and cats eyes means the chances of accidents are higher. Import tariffs do not help, either. i could go on, but theres no point. And environment? the scandinavian regions have stricter regulations, but they dont bang on about it.

The actual bottom line is this: people would probably not mind paying 30-40% more because of the percieved improvements you mention. But not 150-400% more.

Also, Life in London is cheaper, several studies have proven it. Rent is lower, you are not required to have as many insurances, the tube is fairly cheap, the supermarkets are much much cheaper. Take a familys weekly grocery shoopping. On average, in the UK, its £100 or so. Here, you'd pay (for the same quality/brands) 300Fr+.
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Old 03.10.2013, 14:29
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Bottom-line is enjoying a better living standard (low criminality rate, transport infrastructure, environment,...) has also a price that you need to pay if you want to enjoy it.

But I have the impression some expats are wired this way: better service= cheaper products.
Ahh, how simple life must be...
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  #74  
Old 03.10.2013, 14:36
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Cosmopolitan Switzerland is not better enough though. A lot of expats have the illusion that Switzerland is miles better, the truth is that it is more or less the same.

The crime rate is even lower in other parts of Europe, but that is conveniently forgotten.
I invite you to read some recent statistics. Switzerland has among the lowest crime rates in Europe

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I would argue that the transport infrastructure (when it comes to goods) isnt as good. 2-lane highways means the occasional traffic jam is much more significant. The absence of rumble strips and cats eyes means the chances of accidents are higher.
The difference is so marginal in terms of accident when you look at the stats.
Traffic jam in Switzerland? You must be kidding. The ones I've seen in Paris or London on the M20 are quite a nightmare...sorry but not credible here.


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Import tariffs do not help, either. i could go on, but theres no point. And environment? the scandinavian regions have stricter regulations, but they dont bang on about it.

The actual bottom line is this: people would probably not mind paying 30-40% more because of the percieved improvements you mention. But not 150-400% more.

Also, Life in London is cheaper, several studies have proven it. Rent is lower, you are not required to have as many insurances, the tube is fairly cheap, the supermarkets are much much cheaper. Take a familys weekly grocery shoopping. On average, in the UK, its £100 or so. Here, you'd pay (for the same quality/brands) 300Fr+.
Can't argue about the cost of rent and housing in London. From people who lived there it seemed to be pretty expensive and poor quality.
The tube is probably cheaper but the few times I've been to London I experienced many delays, outages. I can't say it's far better than the swiss transport system which is praised by many other countries and visitors in Switzerland.
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Old 03.10.2013, 14:37
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Yes I never said it's illegal what they are doing. I just pointed out that it's unfair.
I'm not sure what's unfair about that.

As far as I know, Google makes most of its money from advertising. This service is provided by a synergy of two technologies: the search product (which is the best in business), and their advanced ads bidding system (which is quite a fascinating technology). Neither was made in the UK, so I'm not sure what tax rights the UK has over Google's revenue, apart from VAT (which they pay, as far as I know).

There's a lot of talk linking profit tax to the sales done in the UK, but that's not how the law works at all. I mean, the UK doesn't tax Renault's corporate profits (if they had any) for the cars they sell in the UK, nor does it seem to be obvious to me that the UK government has any moral rights over these profits.

The HMRC's chief was grilled over Google's tax situation - you can find this online, it's in the accounts committee record - and when asked about the sales force in Ireland vs the sales force in the UK, which the politicians thought was the very crux of the issue, the answer was: this is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who does the selling, since Google could easily outsource the selling of the product.

What really matters is where the product is made, and the UK doesn't have much skin in the game there.

My guess is if the UK tightens the screw with some onerous demands then Google will wind down all activity based in the UK and continue selling advertising to UK businesses from Ireland, and pay no UK taxes at all. This would be a shame, as it would affect people with well paying jobs, and well paying jobs are taxed very highly in the UK.
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Old 03.10.2013, 14:38
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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No, I'm being a rational consumer.

The cost of a good to me is not only the price of the item, but also the cost to obtain that item. To me, any bricks-and-mortar purchase has to be weighed against the cost of getting out of the house.

Which is why I buy so much online.

I may decide it's worth it to pop for the sitter in order to see the upcoming production of Faust at the Operhaus. Or for a rare outing to the Viaduckt market, where there are things on offer that I cannot get anyplace else.

But to purchase a book for 4 times the Amazon price? Which might not be available? No, not worth it.

In fact, very few things are worth the cost to me of buying bricks-and-mortar.

The total cost of an item includes more than the price. What those extraneous factors may be, and how they will influence perception of value and purchasing decisions, will vary by the individual.

Thank doG for Amazon!


Gotta run - off to the Tierklinik, another Swiss service I value highly, and happily pay for.

(But the treats the dogs will get as a reward for good exam-room behavior were bought online from Germany - because the brand I favor is not available here.)
The cost of the SERVICE or PRODUCT is the same for everyone at a fixed outlet.

The cost of obtaining that service or product is a cost that should be incorporated into the decision made to live in a certain location.

In your case a trip into the nearest major city would incur an additional cost - whether you are doing that for pleasure or to shop for a specific product. Your circumstances dictate that the time and money cost of a trip is noticeably higher than that of someone who lives in 8001. Living in 8001 wouldn't work for you. Living where you do means that you accept that you will be forced to incur higher costs for certain costs/services.
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Old 03.10.2013, 14:42
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Living where you do means that you accept that you will be forced to incur higher costs for certain costs/services.
... or make the rational decision to use another provider of a given service, the use of which incurs lower costs.
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Old 03.10.2013, 15:06
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Trying to get shit for free and underpaying those less fortunate is not how capitalism works.
Funny, I thought trying to get things for as little as possible and exploiting those in a weaker bargaining position was precisely how capitalism works.

I must admit, I shop around where possible to get the lowest price, and in a lot of cases I don't necessarily investigate why the person selling the product/service can do so at a lower price than their competitors.
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Old 03.10.2013, 15:07
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

One reason why we moved to Switzerland was because it was in the middle of Europe and we could benefit from, and enjoy the experience of, going out to France for lunch or a weekend in Italy, or a day in Konstanz with a bit of shopping.

Are my weekend and free-time activities morally unacceptable?
Should I spend all my free-time in Switzerland, or perhaps take a packed lunch and a flask of coffee to other countries lest I spend money in them?
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Old 03.10.2013, 15:08
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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I invite you to read some recent statistics. Switzerland has among the lowest crime rates in Europe


The difference is so marginal in terms of accident when you look at the stats.
Traffic jam in Switzerland? You must be kidding. The ones I've seen in Paris or London on the M20 are quite a nightmare...sorry but not credible here.



Can't argue about the cost of rent and housing in London. From people who lived there it seemed to be pretty expensive and poor quality.
The tube is probably cheaper but the few times I've been to London I experienced many delays, outages. I can't say it's far better than the swiss transport system which is praised by many other countries and visitors in Switzerland.
Invitation Recieved:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/c/cc/Prison_population_2005_2010.PNG

That is prison population. Switzerland averages around 80 people in prison per 100,000 population. That is around the same as or more then:
Denmark
Ireland
Cyprus
Malta
Slovenia
Finland
Sweden
Northern Ireland
Iceland
Norway
Croatia.

IT is among the lowest, but not the lowest. It is comparable to other coutries of similar size and population. It is nothing special.

Regarding the roads The difference is as far from 'marginal' as it is humanly possible to get.

From your own source:

Road deaths in Switzerland are higher then in the UK, despite the UK having a population over 8 times higher. The number of UK motorists is approx 40 million, around 5 times higher then the total swiss population. This doesnt even include foreign drivers (eg HGVs) How this translates into safer roads here or only a marginal change, i do not understand. If anything, the UK system is well above expectations.

Also, you mention London and Paris...what is the population of these cities? There are probably more drivers in London alone then the whole of Switzerland. Imagine every swiss driver on the streets of Geneva, at the same time. There would be traffic jams the likes of which London has not seen. The roads in Switzerland are not as good as people seem to think - they just carry far less. They are adequate, not good.

The Tube carries far more people then the entire swiss train network. Something that big, and with that many individual parts will of course break down occasionally. Can you imagine if the Swiss transport system suddenly had to carry 5 times as many passengers? it too, would collapse. And you can bet the prices would still be higher. The swiss system is good, but is not that much ahead of the UK network.

All this goes back to my original point - Switzerland is very good, and people would not mind paying a little extra. But paying 3-4 times as much for something of the same or worse quality (have you tried swiss Ketchup? Good god.) is what people have a problem with.
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