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  #101  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:06
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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it's about them paying their fair share of tax. It needs to change.
They pay their fair share of tax under German law.

Better 3 million than 0 million, no?
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  #102  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:11
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Bullshit.

My local garage guy will suggest to me things I can do myself (OK, he knows I have the tools, etc.), the local Denner staff will remind me that a sale is upcoming, so I shouldn't buy so much wine at the moment and would I like to reserve some, etc.

Also, I'd prefer that they didn't chit-chat, but they do, as I'M IN A HURRY!

Tom
Tom, dear - haven't we already established that you're a special snowflake and that where you live is not even remotely like the rest of CH? Besides, I did say in my experience/from my perspective...at least I think I did!
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  #103  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:12
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Hmmmm, yes

but no You need to take into account the whole cost, financial, social, cultural.

A bit like saying nuclear energy is cheaper, without taking into account decomissioning, waste disposal, etc, etc.

Look at a case like the closure of Cecil Jacob's shops in the UK (due to Amazon and others taking the business. Staff spent all their day giving excellent advice to prospective customers, who would then go and buy on-line once armed with the right information). The loss of tax locally and nationally from those shops, the cost to the high street in yet another empty shop, the financial and social costs of so many un-employed staff, etc, etc.
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  #104  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:13
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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They pay their fair share of tax under German law.

Better 3 million than 0 million, no?
I would be interested in knowing how much German companies are paying in tax in Germany for their exports, but I can't be bothered looking it up.

You know, BMW and Mercedes for example.

I would not be surprised to see they have similar (maybe not the same) tax-avoidance schemes or even laws particularly tailored to them, but the politicians have more to gain for putting the spotlight on the "evil" U.S. giants in this case. Lots of voters employed by the national giants (without wondering about the lobbying power of the companies themselves).
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  #105  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:14
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Tom, dear - haven't we already established that you're a special snowflake and that where you live is not even remotely like the rest of CH?
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  #106  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:28
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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I would be interested in knowing how much German companies are paying in tax in Germany for their exports, but I can't be bothered looking it up.

You know, BMW and Mercedes for example.

I would not be surprised to see they have similar (maybe not the same) tax-avoidance schemes or even laws particularly tailored to them, but the politicians have more to gain for putting the spotlight on the "evil" U.S. giants in this case. Lots of voters employed by the national giants (without wondering about the lobbying power of the companies themselves).
Why would anyone ever pay more tax than legally required? it seems most odd that the concept is continually questioned here.
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  #107  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:30
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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- 3m on 6.8b sales in Germany
- 110m profit declared in Luxembourg but no tax paid due to exempt.

it's about them paying their fair share of tax. It needs to change.
Who decides their fair share? You? No matter what tax or tax rate is paid, there will be someone who thinks they should pay more, in the name of fa-a-a-irness... "Fair," "Fair Share," and "Fairness" are such subjective, loaded terms. Just because a company has a large revenue stream doesn't mean they're making money, and someone else mentioned that companies are taxed in Switzerland on profits, not revenue streams (a sensible concept, if you consider that the government wants companies to succeed if they want to continue to collect tax revenue from them), so linking taxation to revenue as you've done, is massively disingenuous. Essentially, you're trying to choose numbers that will make a big, rich company look bad, when maybe this company isn't the bad guy here.

Consider that Amazon attempting to build market share is the same exact thing that any small, Mom-and-Pop company would do. The difference is that Amazon does have resources from its business elsewhere to support it operating at a loss in Switzerland, but these resources are somewhat outside the jurisdiction of the Swiss government (unless they want to become a big, overreaching monolith like the US federal government), so a line has to be drawn by the Swiss on what can be controlled/taxed and then it has to be decided how the things on the Swiss side of the line are handled. Part of this is considering that, if Amazon is profitable, Amazon WILL pay taxes to Switzerland, and the more successful Amazon is, the more taxes will be paid in.

IMO, that's the whole point of what's going on- this is an investment into a FUTURE tax stream that may prove more valuable long-term than just foolishly taxing the crap out of a big company, simply because they're a big company.
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  #108  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:33
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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I'm not sure what's unfair about that.

(...)

What really matters is where the product is made, and the UK doesn't have much skin in the game there.

My guess is if the UK tightens the screw with some onerous demands then Google will wind down all activity based in the UK and continue selling advertising to UK businesses from Ireland, and pay no UK taxes at all. This would be a shame, as it would affect people with well paying jobs, and well paying jobs are taxed very highly in the UK.
So you do believe that Google created its product all in Bermuda?
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  #109  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:39
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Who decides their fair share? You? No matter what tax or tax rate is paid, there will be someone who thinks they should pay more, in the name of fa-a-a-irness... "Fair," "Fair Share," and "Fairness" are such subjective, loaded terms. Just because a company has a large revenue stream doesn't mean they're making money, and someone else mentioned that companies are taxed in Switzerland on profits, not revenue streams (a sensible concept, if you consider that the government wants companies to succeed if they want to continue to collect tax revenue from them), so linking taxation to revenue as you've done, is massively disingenuous. Essentially, you're trying to choose numbers that will make a big, rich company look bad, when maybe this company isn't the bad guy here.

Consider that Amazon attempting to build market share is the same exact thing that any small, Mom-and-Pop company would do. The difference is that Amazon does have resources from its business elsewhere to support it operating at a loss in Switzerland, but these resources are somewhat outside the jurisdiction of the Swiss government (unless they want to become a big, overreaching monolith like the US federal government), so a line has to be drawn by the Swiss on what can be controlled/taxed and then it has to be decided how the things on the Swiss side of the line are handled. Part of this is considering that, if Amazon is profitable, Amazon WILL pay taxes to Switzerland, and the more successful Amazon is, the more taxes will be paid in.

IMO, that's the whole point of what's going on- this is an investment into a FUTURE tax stream that may prove more valuable long-term than just foolishly taxing the crap out of a big company, simply because they're a big company.
Why do they make low or 0 profits in some countries? It's just based on a financial device like Intellectual Property box that would have the German subsidiary pay some IP fees to a Bermuda based company that belongs to them.

What I want to emphasize is that tax should reflect the genuine activity you have in that country. The Luxembourg offices of Amazon are empty. There is no real activitiy there! This is true for all international companies (US, UK, German, CH, etc...).
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  #110  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:39
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Why would anyone ever pay more tax than legally required? it seems most odd that the concept is continually questioned here.
Ask Starbucks
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  #111  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:41
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Why would anyone ever pay more tax than legally required? it seems most odd that the concept is continually questioned here.
Just to be sure to clarify, I agree with you. This is exactly what the companies (or individuals) should%2
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  #112  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:42
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Starbucks, Amazon, Google - all American companies.

Good, honest Swiss companies pay tax in Switzerland. Because they pay tax, their prices are higher.



(No? )
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  #113  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:42
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Why would anyone ever pay more tax than legally required? it seems most odd that the concept is continually questioned here.
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Ask Starbucks
Because the tax scheme today is unfair (although legal today) and puts some states at risk. OECD is working on changing this.
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  #114  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:44
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Why would anyone ever pay more tax than legally required? it seems most odd that the concept is continually questioned here.
Tax is an obligatory expense and not a charity, so why would anyone pay more than they should.

I wonder where Starbucks would put their tax expense in ther profit and loss accounts for this year? Marketing, political donations or charity?
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  #115  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:44
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Because the tax scheme today is unfair (although legal today) and puts some states at risk. OECD is working on changing this.
You could also state that paying any tax is unfair, especially as countries just can print any money they require
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  #116  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:54
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Cool, another Starbucks thread.

Make mine a double-cappu-frappu-cino-wino-tax-free-zero-hour-lite to take out.
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  #117  
Old 03.10.2013, 16:58
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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Cool, another Starbucks thread.

Make mine a double-cappu-frappu-cino-wino-tax-free-zero-hour-lite to take out.
"One double-cappu-frappu-cino-wino-tax-free-zero-hour-lite for Tammy!!"

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  #118  
Old 03.10.2013, 17:05
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Its getting a bit off topic, but whatever

Dont blame the companies, blame the governments who allow the extreme tax minimisation to occur. Change the law to remove the loop holes and exceptions..
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  #119  
Old 03.10.2013, 17:05
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

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I think quality (or at least "legal") horse meat is possibly more expensive than equivalent quality beef and pork
More expensive than pork, 20% or so cheaper than beef.

Tom
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  #120  
Old 03.10.2013, 17:06
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Re: Rich tight bottomed auslanders

Excluding any obvious rip-offs, my basic complaint with swiss pricing is that imo they have not removed non value added costs or not maximized use of assets like other countries did decades ago. Prices include too many little subsidies for other things. The shiny Migros monthly magazine, the luxurious "free" gifts for the kids, the reduced cinema schedules (or course they need to charge more if they have less shows), the countless shops closing at lunch time, the sturdy plastic plates and glasses used in festival food, the "free" use of the sauna when I pay for an hour of Tennis, and the list goes on. I couldn't even buy a sensibly equipped new car... every dealer had several thousands worth of "free equipment", that of course isn't free at all. All these things make goods and services more expensive, but as a consumer I have little choice between those seemingly high content / high service goods and the bare-essential (Aldi, Lidl) goods.

In public services, the "indivisibility" of prices irates me: Road vignette? Pay full year or nothing (poor tourists)... Ride the tram? One full hour or one full month (poor people who commute only a few days a week)... Take the trash out? A full bag or nothing (poor people that don't cook much). There are no in betweens that make the price fair for what you actually consume. The list probably goes on, but I haven't been here long enough to discover more of them.

I expect to pay for exactly the level of service or the quality of goods I want, and likewise I expect to not pay for superfluous things I don't want or things that only benefit others (i.e. I'll gladly pay the extra price for an all night shops, but I won't pay extra so someone can go home for an hour at noon). I haven't seen a country where almost the only choice is top-of-the-line, all-in.
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