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  #81  
Old 05.12.2013, 14:15
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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Were you two in a sexual relationship previously?
Not that I'm aware of. Not sure what I've done to upset him so much...
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  #82  
Old 05.12.2013, 14:19
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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... I actually find it very odd that they can offer services without VAT/tax.
Turnover below the threshold (100K?)
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Not that I'm aware of. Not sure what I've done to upset him so much...
Perhaps it was you turning him down?
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  #83  
Old 05.12.2013, 14:23
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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and they had the nerve! to threaten to sue? rofl
Not me.

Besides, Miss Moneypenny handles all of my email: 007@sis.gov.uk
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  #84  
Old 05.12.2013, 14:29
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

I think the biggest problem here is that the OP brought attention to a 7 month old post by posting this thread when a simple quick word with a mod explaining the whole story may well have resolved the situation.

The deletion at this stage is neither here nor there as the post would have probably been deleted anyway if the businees involved had threatened the Local with legal action, which, as the majority of you long term members know, has already happened before.

As mods we're not here to be bloody minded, although to some of you it may seem so, and as such we will listen to requests, when backed up with information as to how much trouble there will be for the member - especially if the member posted helpful information in a bid to prevent others having the same negative experience.

There has been no precident set here. Most of what we do is based on judgement calls within an unwritten and loosly implemented rule set - sometimes it's a definite no no, other times it really does depend on the circumstances. We're are not jobsworths, and as such we don't implement rules blindly and purely for the sake of it.

In this instance I'm backing Ace1's decision as: 1) it was dealing with a 7 month old thread that had no replies, and 2) The potential was there to generate way more trouble for the OP than the benefit gained for the rest of us. The final decision, however, is still pending.
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  #85  
Old 05.12.2013, 15:02
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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I'd agree - but the website may be perceived to potentially fraudulently claim "No hidden charges e.g. price increases!" - the OP clearly had a late price increase that was down to the company.
Funny as it does not say that in the German version....

In any case, what is even funnier IMHO is that noone had even replied to intitial thread and I personally had nto even seen it (like many of us?)

And now, we all know

So the company did really well in protecting themselves!

I would leave thread up and take away the fraud part.
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Old 05.12.2013, 15:06
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

It's called the Streisand Effect
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  #87  
Old 05.12.2013, 15:19
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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I actually find it very odd that they can offer services without VAT/tax.
But they do offer
  • Price guarantee (after previous inspection & tender offer)!
Tom
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  #88  
Old 07.12.2013, 04:37
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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The thread has only been soft-deleted while we (mods) get a chance to talk about it, and was done at the OP's request. If we decide otherwise we will restore it and/or edit it to remove offending parts.
The offending part i assume is the word 'fraud'? well, on the website it is written clearly no hidden prices! on the phone they mentioned they dont need to see the flat! they came, right 4 hours before my landlord shows up they call and say: listen, you either pay more, or we will leave and not clean anymore! that leaves you in a situation where you have to find another cleaning company that can provide service ASAP! can you really , in zurich? so i had no choice but to agree and say Yes! now that to me is a Fraud.

Fraud:

A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features
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  #89  
Old 07.12.2013, 04:50
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

WHY I POSTED THIS:

EF helped me in a few occasions when i first came to switzerland, this was and is to me and i guess many others? the platform where we get to hear very useful information.

now, i posted this out of responsibility i guess, bcos i went through an experience on a topic i never had before ' cleaning and handover in such a way in switzerland'. it went bad, really bad, took alot of my time, wasted alot more money than i wanted to save in first place. didnt want you guys to go through what i went through. u guys had to know about it, had to hear the story too and judge by yourself. now i didnt ask people not to go to this company, i said: be very careful.
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Old 07.12.2013, 04:58
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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Hi Dariush,

The law says it is not defamation as long as it is true, or as long as what your are saying can be perceived as the truth from your point of view.

But since they got a lawyer involved, even if they are just trying to scare you, you just get legal insurance if you dont have it, and/or check if your Gemeinde has a free lawyer advice.

if you can speak german, here is the law, art. 173 and 176
http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...0000/311.0.pdf

I tried looking at your post but it looks like it's been deleted...


Thanks for the link.
1. what i wrote is all true and have prove for it.
2. i have written the company an email complaining of the incident with same details, and they acknowledged it.
3. my Landlord was involved in the case , he can be a witness to many part of the story.
4. i have pictures of damages they made. can be verified by the shop who fixed/replaced them.
5.they increased the price in a way i was taken hostage! was like a Yes or Yes situation. that is fraud!


now, the only Q is, if all of these above, makes sense to the judge. to me it makes full sense and i will fight for it if it goes official.
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  #91  
Old 07.12.2013, 09:41
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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But since they got a lawyer involved, even if they are just trying to scare you, you just get legal insurance if you dont have it
I'm not sure insurance would help with a "pre-existing condition".

Though your other advice seems spot on, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt
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  #92  
Old 29.10.2015, 14:28
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

Hi Folks!

I' having also problems with the same company! They made an offer, I accepted. Afterwords they claim, that a offer was not "definitive" and wanted 300.- Fr more..
Now, they won't clean my appartment and I have to organize the cleaning in 2 days...

Prepearing everything to take legal action against them. If anyone has some information or just the "desire" to share any infomation, which could help people not being fooled by such companies
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  #93  
Old 29.10.2015, 15:33
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

Did they make the offer in a mail and did they look at the apartment beforehand?
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  #94  
Old 29.10.2015, 20:59
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

In Switzerland, be careful when posting company reviews or warnings to others to avoid the services and products of a specific company.

If a company, their partners and associates have enough to lose (or are already being significantly negatively impacted) by your account of your experience with them, and has sufficient funding to hire the services of powerful law firms, they may build a case around the "Unfair Competition" (DE: Unlauteren Wettbewerb) law:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...010000/241.pdf

Regardless of your experience and any of the countless documents, photos or other artefacts you may have which you have to support/prove/validate your experience, you must avoid any "Value Judgements". Wikipedia defines this as:

“…a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something or someone, or of the usefulness of something or someone, based on a comparison or other relativity. As a generalisation, a value judgment can refer to a judgment based upon a particular set of values or on a particular value system."

A few examples to illustrate my point:

1. If a company are unwilling to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “unprofessional”.

2. If a company is unable to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “incompetent”.

3. If a company ignores your correspondence attempts, such as emails, letters and phone calls, and clearly expresses unwillingness to cooperate or even address open points, one cannot claim that this company is “disrespectful”

4. If a company delivers what you (or any reasonable person) would consider to be poor service, one cannot claim that this company provides “poor service”

5. If a company delivers a product which falls below the previously agreed quality standards, one cannot claim that this company delivers “low quality”

In other words:

Your opinion of your experience and events which occurred are totally irrelevant, and you are certainly forbidden from forming, expressing or imparting you opinions, or disseminating this information to others, despite Article 16 (1,2,3) of the Swiss Constitution:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...140000/101.pdf

Art. 16 Freedom of expression and of information

1. Freedom of expression and of information is guaranteed.
2. Every person has the right freely to form, express, and impart their opinions.
3. Every person has the right freely to receive information to gather it from generally accessible sources and to disseminate it.

.
.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Swiss Unfair Competition Law.pdf (129.9 KB, 178 views)
File Type: pdf Swiss Constitution.pdf (369.4 KB, 191 views)

Last edited by ConnorMac; 29.10.2015 at 21:26. Reason: typo
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  #95  
Old 30.10.2015, 00:57
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

true, an employment agency here in ticino just sued two union guys for this unfair competition and other things
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Old 30.10.2015, 08:27
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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true, an employment agency here in ticino just sued two union guys for this unfair competition and other things
Successfully?

Are there any get outs by couching your insults in suitably couched terms:

From this experience someone might draw the conclusion that the company XYZ, in my case at least, behaved in what could be described as a manner less than would be expected from committed professionals.
Or
Given the facts, one might conclude that company XYZ is staffed by morons and owned by incompetent idiots.
Or
I'm not saying, however, that the company XZY is unprofessional, doesn't care about the customers, nor that the managing director is a half-wit of the lowest order.

Mind you, simply stating the facts of what happened and letting others draw their own conclusions is safe, isn't it?
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  #97  
Old 30.10.2015, 08:46
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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In Switzerland, be careful when posting company reviews or warnings to others to avoid the services and products of a specific company.

If a company, their partners and associates have enough to lose (or are already being significantly negatively impacted) by your account of your experience with them, and has sufficient funding to hire the services of powerful law firms, they may build a case around the "Unfair Competition" (DE: Unlauteren Wettbewerb) law:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...010000/241.pdf

Regardless of your experience and any of the countless documents, photos or other artefacts you may have which you have to support/prove/validate your experience, you must avoid any "Value Judgements". Wikipedia defines this as:

“…a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something or someone, or of the usefulness of something or someone, based on a comparison or other relativity. As a generalisation, a value judgment can refer to a judgment based upon a particular set of values or on a particular value system."

A few examples to illustrate my point:

1. If a company are unwilling to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “unprofessional”.

2. If a company is unable to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “incompetent”.

3. If a company ignores your correspondence attempts, such as emails, letters and phone calls, and clearly expresses unwillingness to cooperate or even address open points, one cannot claim that this company is “disrespectful”

4. If a company delivers what you (or any reasonable person) would consider to be poor service, one cannot claim that this company provides “poor service”

5. If a company delivers a product which falls below the previously agreed quality standards, one cannot claim that this company delivers “low quality”

In other words:

Your opinion of your experience and events which occurred are totally irrelevant, and you are certainly forbidden from forming, expressing or imparting you opinions, or disseminating this information to others, despite Article 16 (1,2,3) of the Swiss Constitution:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...140000/101.pdf

Art. 16 Freedom of expression and of information

1. Freedom of expression and of information is guaranteed.
2. Every person has the right freely to form, express, and impart their opinions.
3. Every person has the right freely to receive information to gather it from generally accessible sources and to disseminate it.

.
.
So basically the mythical sacred cow of "Swiss quality" has been enshrined in law. Well at least we can be grateful that there's anonymous internetz.
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Old 30.10.2015, 10:02
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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In Switzerland, be careful when posting company reviews or warnings to others to avoid the services and products of a specific company.

If a company, their partners and associates have enough to lose (or are already being significantly negatively impacted) by your account of your experience with them, and has sufficient funding to hire the services of powerful law firms, they may build a case around the "Unfair Competition" (DE: Unlauteren Wettbewerb) law:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...010000/241.pdf

Regardless of your experience and any of the countless documents, photos or other artefacts you may have which you have to support/prove/validate your experience, you must avoid any "Value Judgements". Wikipedia defines this as:

“…a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something or someone, or of the usefulness of something or someone, based on a comparison or other relativity. As a generalisation, a value judgment can refer to a judgment based upon a particular set of values or on a particular value system."

A few examples to illustrate my point:

1. If a company are unwilling to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “unprofessional”.

2. If a company is unable to deliver a previously agreed product, within a previously agreed time frame, to a previously agreed quality level, one cannot state that the company is “incompetent”.

3. If a company ignores your correspondence attempts, such as emails, letters and phone calls, and clearly expresses unwillingness to cooperate or even address open points, one cannot claim that this company is “disrespectful”

4. If a company delivers what you (or any reasonable person) would consider to be poor service, one cannot claim that this company provides “poor service”

5. If a company delivers a product which falls below the previously agreed quality standards, one cannot claim that this company delivers “low quality”

In other words:

Your opinion of your experience and events which occurred are totally irrelevant, and you are certainly forbidden from forming, expressing or imparting you opinions, or disseminating this information to others, despite Article 16 (1,2,3) of the Swiss Constitution:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...140000/101.pdf

Art. 16 Freedom of expression and of information

1. Freedom of expression and of information is guaranteed.
2. Every person has the right freely to form, express, and impart their opinions.
3. Every person has the right freely to receive information to gather it from generally accessible sources and to disseminate it.

.
.
You give a set of very specific points, but the documentation doesn't back them up - can you cross reference or provide specific cases?

Also, this is very clearly aimed at "advertising" and the sales of goods and services; if there is no sale, it's hard to see how this could be applied, and the main restitution seems to be clarification of the material or cessation of the sale - neither of which would be a problem for a forum posting.
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Old 30.10.2015, 10:12
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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So basically the mythical sacred cow of "Swiss quality" has been enshrined in law. Well at least we can be grateful that there's anonymous internetz.

Exactly! It's all "high quality", because one cannot claim it is "low quality". Even if the right to your opinion and expression of it is clearly stated in Article 16 of the Swiss Consitution (see attached image)

Personally, I have many many examples (and documented evidence) of unprofessional, incompetent, disrespectful behaviour and low quality or poor service, but I am prevented by law from "disseminating" this information
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Old 30.10.2015, 10:43
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Re: Threaten by company on legal action against posting on EF my bad experience with

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You give a set of very specific points, but the documentation doesn't back them up - can you cross reference or provide specific cases?

Also, this is very clearly aimed at "advertising" and the sales of goods and services; if there is no sale, it's hard to see how this could be applied, and the main restitution seems to be clarification of the material or cessation of the sale - neither of which would be a problem for a forum posting.
I also was under the impression that the Unfair Competition law, as the name suggests, was aimed at unfair competitive practices between companies. I have since discovered that this law can be used as the basis for a legal case against a private individual rather than a commercial legal entity, even when that individual is not actually selling any products of services.

Censorship (Swiss Constitution Art. 17.2) and gagging orders (Swiss Constitution Art. 16) are also popular and effective manipulation tools. Private individuals often have less resources available to enter into protracted and expensive court battles. If the information and documented evidence one has is sufficiently damaging to an organisation, financially and/or reputationally, there are ways and means to ensure that this information and documented evidence is not revealed to the buying public.
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Last edited by ConnorMac; 30.10.2015 at 11:06.
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