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  #141  
Old 10.02.2014, 13:57
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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What do you mean "if"?
Yes I know there is advertising on here, what I meant was having to pay a user fee. Why are the MODS getting paid a Swiss wage that I was un aware of?
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  #142  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:01
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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it's not censorship, if you only offer guidance- Call it some "educative filtering".
Yes it is censorship. And it would put a lot of users off using the site.

The owners of the forum need to decide what they want.

At the moment, the forum discourages new users from joining up to ask a quick question and get a quick answer.

If you don't want these users, then keep things the same. Fine.

If you want to accommodate them, without alienating the existing members, simply create a separate sub-forum dedicated to a question-answer format (such as answers.yahoo.com).

Simple.
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  #143  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:09
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Yes it is censorship. And it would put a lot of users off using the site.

The owners of the forum need to decide what they want.

At the moment, the forum discourages new users from joining up to ask a quick question and get a quick answer.

If you don't want these users, then keep things the same. Fine.

If you want to accommodate them, without alienating the existing members, simply create a separate sub-forum dedicated to a question-answer format (such as answers.yahoo.com).

Simple.
I don't think that has ever been the case. All anyone asks is for more people to feel welcome and contribute their experiences to help the new and the people that have been here to discover something new. Quick questions are often solved by putting a few tag words into the search function, instead of putting a new question, and hoping people will stop watching The Voice of Germany, or baking with their brown sugar, and complaining about complaining in the complaints corner, and waiting for a response.
People use Google all the time in this exact same way, and it seems to be working for Google/and the users.
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  #144  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:14
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

You don't see google, facebook, twitter, etc saying "Oh no. We don't want stupid people for users! Let's block any user who we think is stupid!"

No. They say "Hmmm. People are stupider than we thought. We will need to adapt. How can we accommodate them, increase our profits and increase our popularity?"
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  #145  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:16
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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You don't see google, facebook, twitter, etc saying "Oh no. We don't want stupid people for users! Let's block any user who we think is stupid!"

No. They say "Hmmm. People are stupider than we thought. We will need to adapt. How can we accommodate them, increase our profits and increase our popularity?"
You confuse the main function of Google (search engine) and their core business (adverts) with this forum.

Just a hint: EF is not google!!
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  #146  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:17
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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You don't see google, facebook, twitter, etc saying "Oh no. We don't want stupid people for users! Let's block any user who we think is stupid!"

No. They say "Hmmm. People are stupider than we thought. We will need to adapt. How can we accommodate them, increase our profits and increase our popularity?"
See, that's not proper English...it wouldn't work in the English Forum.
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  #147  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:18
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

I've also noticed this "problem" and, in fact, quite a few expats that I've met here in CH have told me that they avoid the EF precisely because of this reason. A good friend of mine even once said to me, "I don't know why you like that place. Everyone on there is so belittling."

Of course, I don't think that's true (or else I wouldn't be a regular member). I've "met" a lot of really nice people on here and have found the EF to be incredibly helpful. I also think that some people mistake cheekiness and jokes for the serious, when the comment wasn't intended to be interpreted that way. But I have noticed that sometimes people are a bit too quick to condemn a newbie for silly things like misspelling*, asking a question that was already answered, etc.

*Oh, the irony. I had to spell that word three times until I finally got it right.

Now, if you'll excuse me...

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  #148  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:18
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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You don't see google, facebook, twitter, etc saying "Oh no. We don't want stupid people for users! Let's block any user who we think is stupid!"

No. They say "Hmmm. People are stupider than we thought. We will need to adapt. How can we accommodate them, increase our profits and increase our popularity?"
But they are not EF

On EF it isn't EF saying "Bugger off you stupid cretin" it is the EF members that are saying "Bugger off you stupid cretin".

If EF doesn't want it's member to say "Bugger of you stupid cretin" they could ban them. But doing that would take away all the members who actually know what they are talking about.

In truth - what EF needs is a fulltime dictator who will torch "most" of the crap on here - and distill it down to the useful stuff. In doing so you would prevent stupid cretins coming on this site, asking stupid cretinous questions and told to bugger off.
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  #149  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:26
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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I disagree

One can not call a "solution" for something that obviously does not works.
In fact you are illustrating that yourself: There are many topics and discussions about it, and yet nothing is changing. Again, it's not a problem for me, but apparently, as per this thread, it's a morale problem.

In particular:
1) Often, new posters don't do that. Also, technically, if you write this advice, a new poster can't read it unless they've searched...

2) Well, lot of people do reply. Also, inaction (the workaround you suggested) does not contribute to preventing crap being posted and the quality of information to be improved because "no one say anything". In other terms, it would become the norm to say crap and get away with it.

Additionally, I frankly could not care less what "mum" or "grandmother" could think about what I post. That's where your "solutions" are not appropriate and not addressing the problem:

You fail to take into account that everyone's different and have different expectations.

That is why, I think, a relevant workaround, could be that thing about moderators to have a mini-review of first topics.

I see it could be a win-win for all:
Newbies won't be immediately told off for posting crap and get some kind of guidance.
Not newbies will see less of those irritating craps
Quality of information could improve-

Less people being morally distressed, extremely frustrated and depressed for being told off that insulting a company because they got stung after not respecting a contract they signed was absolutely stup... erm inappropriate. Erm Gran, are you still reading?
Hang on....

The Lolcal owns EF. EF makes noise. Newbies come to EF. Some join, some don't. Many click on adverts (ker-ching). Some use the forums. Forums are "run" by a hapless bunch of unpaid "volunteers".

So who's going to handle the post review queue again?

And more to the point, who's going to handle the complaints when someone's first post sinks to page 2 or beyond because it could not be reviewed quickly enough.

And finally, wouldn't that be ever more cliquey?

EF isn't the only online forum where you need a thick skin. I think there's quite a lot of them out there.
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  #150  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:32
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Yes it is censorship. And it would put a lot of users off using the site.

The owners of the forum need to decide what they want.

At the moment, the forum discourages new users from joining up to ask a quick question and get a quick answer.

If you don't want these users, then keep things the same. Fine.

If you want to accommodate them, without alienating the existing members, simply create a separate sub-forum dedicated to a question-answer format (such as answers.yahoo.com).

Simple.
Far from being simple based on your post-

1) You generalize and make an incorrect judgment call.
It is censorship? I disagree.

2) You extend your flawed opinion and chose the only obvious possible outcome to defend your theory. Yes it couldput a lot of users off using the site, but it won't necessarily would.
Take the example where someone would be asking "where can I find brown sugar". A mod could view this message, and prevent negative comments by saying: "hi, There's a search function, you'll find it useful, blabla, here's the link, blabla".
User: oh thanks, I haven't seen it before, good to know". End.
And frankly, in that invented example, if the new user is "put off" by such an answer, then they have nothing to do on a public forum or anywhere near a computer.


3) Then you are saying this "At the moment, the forum discourages new users from joining up to ask a quick question and get a quick answer."
At the moment? What changed recently?
Many users have joined up, asked questions and got answers, and still stayed and contribute.
Is that the forum main objective to have new people asking quick questions and get quick answers?


4) About the sub-forum and alienating the existing member... It's again based on the wrong criteria, it's not old vs new users, it's about behavior that we can all have. About "education".
Some expect a bit of more intelligent behavior from anyone else (which is why a quick introduction by a moderator could benefit everyone).
And again this is not a forum to "question-answer".
Think Yahoo?
Then think Google, Ricardo.ch, and go there.
It's free and everyone has the freedom to go there.

In other word, people can freely type into Google: "help i'm depressed because i'm an ignorant
who haven't read the contract I signed and now i'm being screwed but i'm going to insult the other party instead". It's free and they'll get the best answers they can without EF human's critics: the address of the closest psychology office near their current location.

The best of both worlds!
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  #151  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:32
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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I don't think that has ever been the case.
There seems to be the expectation that people should introduce themselves and make friends before posting a question. And that the question should be written as if the person just walked into a physical room with physical people:

"Hey there everyone! My name is Fred. Nice to meet you all! I just moved here from Amsterdam. I need to pick up some cheap towels. In Amsterdam, there are these cheap homeware shops on every street corner and a market in the local square where I could always buy stuff like towels. But I haven't seen anything like that in Geneva. Where do you go to buy towels? Is Co-op City and Globus pretty much it? Thanks for all your help. Your best friend forever, Fred."

Now, that's nice. But I personally have no problem if "Fred" signs up and simply posts "Where can I buy towels in Geneva?".

I don't find this arrogant, stupid or demanding. I see it as a business opportunity.

Of course the person looked on google. Of course they have seen department stores on the street. And yet they came to this forum to ask our advice.

And you guys took a giant sh!t on Fred's head!
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  #152  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:33
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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If EF doesn't want it's member to say "Bugger of you stupid cretin" they could ban them. But doing that would take away all the members who actually know what they are talking about.

Absolutely not! The arrogance should never be confused with expertise or experience. On the contrary, it creates bad spirit in the forum, which makes newbies (and people who would have posted more, but they don't want to precisely because of this reason) run away as fast as they can.


There is a huge difference between polite answer and rude answer (even though the information contained in the answer is the same semantically). And even more so coming from someone who is veteran here.
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  #153  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:36
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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And you guys took a giant sh!t on Fred's head!
And without a towel he can't wash it off.

Fred's head, baby, Fred's head.
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  #154  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:41
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Hang on....

The Lolcal owns EF. EF makes noise. Newbies come to EF. Some join, some don't. Many click on adverts (ker-ching). Some use the forums. Forums are "run" by a hapless bunch of unpaid "volunteers".

So who's going to handle the post review queue again?

And more to the point, who's going to handle the complaints when someone's first post sinks to page 2 or beyond because it could not be reviewed quickly enough.

And finally, wouldn't that be ever more cliquey?

EF isn't the only online forum where you need a thick skin. I think there's quite a lot of them out there.
Let's not discuss about practicalities because it's not the point. It's technically easily doable, with little resources and a good will.

Most don't have a good will, that's why instead of visiting local shops or checking on appropriate location (search engines, etc...) they ask here "where is brown sugar".

Yes people need a "thick skin", and no one should redo their education or protect them. Fyi, I hate nanny states.

BUT there is a problem for some with the current situation.
This problem does not have a solution without change.
Giving good behavior advice, like the one we quoted obviously don't work, it's an established fact (based on every days posts). It would work if people would accept, make efforts and educate a bit more (everyone included). But it does not so let's forget it.

So, if one wants to do something, there are way to make this introduction "newbie/vs others" a bit more "sweetened" by providing a very quick introductory net, an educative filter.

That's all I was saying.
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  #155  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:42
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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The owners of the forum need to decide what they want.


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Simple.
Not so.

Unfortunately, tbh.

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..who will torch..
Maybe. But lots of unnecessarily snarky legends are here exactly for that noise you'd like to torch. A bit of street cred they have already invested their effort in accumulating.

I think noobs usually get savy fast, either stay n chip in, too, return. Or leave, as anywhere else. I don't think it's so critical. But I personally dislike the current level of hostility and inability of some to judge the effect of their posting style, this should not be all about a one upping snark contest. There are people from all over here, different cultures, ages, with different level of need to put down others, that gets old after a while for quite a few.
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  #156  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:42
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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We have the stickies and TBH not many newbies seem to read them. Sad really because they provide great informations.
ahem ...... excuse me ..... but ....... what are "stickies" and "TBH"`s? I really don`t know what those are. (I guess I could use the search function? - and not bother anyone with that minor detail in my life - but its so much nicer to get a "real" reply)
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  #157  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:48
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

If we turned this place into an online swingers club, where everyone and anyone is welcome (for a nominal fee), then all our problems would be solved.
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  #158  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:50
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

What about if new users were only allowed to add to threads in their first 7 days?

It would mean that they have at least tried to find the answer on the site.
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  #159  
Old 10.02.2014, 14:51
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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EF isn't the only online forum where you need a thick skin. I think there's quite a lot of them out there.
Exactly. Try some of the video gaming forums .
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Old 10.02.2014, 14:51
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Absolutely not! The arrogance should never be confused with expertise or experience. On the contrary, it creates bad spirit in the forum, which makes newbies (and people who would have posted more, but they don't want to precisely because of this reason) run away as fast as they can.


There is a huge difference between polite answer and rude answer (even though the information contained in the answer is the same semantically). And even more so coming from someone who is veteran here.
Veteran here...
Recently someone told me my answer was appaling especially coming from a "forum legend".
Apparently some people are confusing an automated "virtual status" based on the amount of post, VS Reality.

We should never confuse quantity vs quality.

Technically, I have a "higher status" than you, but this is really ridiculous.

People should learn to manage their expectations and make some research first.
For example:
How one obtained such status?
Is that status meaning anything?

Honestly, I'd rather have no status that this thing, especially if people are taking it seriously.

I've (rarely) read posts from newbies who were far more useful and contributing than most of my posts.

So maybe we should drop that "newbies vs veteran or experts", this is not only ridiculous but a wrong debate.

Maybe we should honestly address the issue: someone posting something negative vs someone replying aggressively.
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