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  #41  
Old 29.05.2014, 09:33
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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Try driving in Denmark - the most dangerous and unforeseeable drivers I have ever seen! (And I've driven in most European countries, including quite a lot in before-mentioned Italy and in Madrid - 4-lane roundabouts without lane markings)<snip>
I agree with the comments about driving in Denmark. One of my fondest memories is watching the traffic at one of the first roundabouts built in Denmark (Høje Taastrup) one winter. It's big, like 3 spiral arranged lanes with early filters off for right turns, plus the obligatory blue cycle path. Danes just don't get roundabouts, so after a few accidents they put traffic lights on it. (Traffic lights on a roundabout, LOL.) I watched as a HGV drove straight over the top of said roundabout, flattening one of the bicycle traffic lights in the process, with following cars just following the tracks and doing likewise. Highly amusing. They put trees and bushes on it. Same happened next year, just flattened them. Then they built a little wall around it. Saw a van on it's roof in the middle.

I have this theory that Danes think they'll get into Valhalla if they crash and burn at the highest speed possible. Newspapers as regular as clockwork report accidents on Hillerødmotorvejen: it's a mostly straightish road which may be the problem... Associated issue could be most Danes can barely afford a car (we're talking tax around 180% on new) so most cars are the cheapest base model, way below the base of other countries even, and woefully underpowered hence once up to speed drivers are just not willing to slow down.

They put up a few speed cameras, but people used them as target practice so they hardly worked. Now they are trying mobile camera vans. I don't expect it to last because of 'the cost': the Danish police just don't have the money to staff all of the vehicles.
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  #42  
Old 29.05.2014, 11:08
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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But to describe the German drivers as flexible clearly is BIZARRE
At least they know how to behave on the Autobahn. Probably because those who don't have already been weeded out by being hit by an Audi or BMW coming from behind at 240 kph!
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  #43  
Old 09.12.2014, 12:29
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

I agree in Switzerland they seem to be more scared of what are they going to do, they think too much and then in the last moment they do something unexpected :-)
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Old 09.12.2014, 12:53
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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Have you driven in Italy?

Or France?
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Old 09.12.2014, 13:12
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

and why do tunnels cause so much panic amungst Swiss drivers.. in particular the gubrist.. traffic is fine until you get there then everyone brakes sharply, then its fine till about middle of tunnel and same happens again and then shortly before exiting....and if it rains!!
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  #46  
Old 09.12.2014, 15:09
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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and why do tunnels cause so much panic amungst Swiss drivers.. in particular the gubrist.. traffic is fine until you get there then everyone brakes sharply, then its fine till about middle of tunnel and same happens again and then shortly before exiting....and if it rains!!
the Gubrist problem has nothing to do with the tunnel itself, but rather the stupid way traffic is fed on to the motorway before you get to the tunnel.
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  #47  
Old 09.12.2014, 15:20
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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and why do tunnels cause so much panic amungst Swiss drivers.. in particular the gubrist.. traffic is fine until you get there then everyone brakes sharply, then its fine till about middle of tunnel and same happens again and then shortly before exiting....and if it rains!!
they're paranoid about the omnipresent cameras?
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  #48  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:17
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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I will follow Sandgrounder recomendation or just change car to train :- )
Anyhow the much better idea ... especially for Ausländers

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If they are driving in what they call the üsser schwiiz, then they are expats too.
Statistically, the Valaisannes are indeed the worst aka most dangerous among the Swiss.

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Best drivers - hands down Germans. Yanks, too, since they are probably born holding a steering wheel.
Well, the only figure I am interested in is how safe the streets are. And given that the Germans often have no limit they indeed aren't that bad, but still worse than the Swiss

Death rate per 1 Million inhabitants per year (2013):

CH: 34
D: 43

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Depends on your definition of "best". Personally I find the Italians to be good drivers within the overall context of driving in Italy even though it might scare many visitors.

Don't agree about Americans at all....far too many are confused when faced with anything more complicated than a dead straight road and particularly with anything moving faster than about 90 Kmh. Although as a lot of my driving there was in the mid west perhaps I don't have a completely balanced view of them...
Right!

Death rate per 1 Million inhabitants per year (2012):

I: 62
USA: 116 (sic!)

even worse than:

Greece: 91
Poland: 109
... traditionally among the worst in Europe!

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Worst drivers are back home. Here people are just too scared or passive aggressive. There (and Poland, excuses..it was the horse carriages and no lanes, other vehicles one wouldn't expect to see on a road) it's just pointlessly risky and dangerous.
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Actually, I consider both of them to be among the worst, and I used to be one, so I should know.

Hell, even my daughters are appalled by the way people drive in the US.

Passing on the right, three lanes doing the exact same speed, the list goes on.

Tom
Proved.

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Try driving in Denmark - the most dangerous and unforeseeable drivers I have ever seen! (And I've driven in most European countries, including quite a lot in before-mentioned Italy and in Madrid - 4-lane roundabouts without lane markings)

Sweden on the other hand was a surprisingly positive experience. Everyone uses blinkers, no tail-gating and predictive drivers when it comes to position themselves in traffic junctions etc.
Quite the contrary ...

Death rate per 1 Million inhabitants per year (2012):

Danemark: 30
Sweden: 30
... among the ultimately best among the entire world!

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I'm Swiss and agree Swiss are not the best drivers (of course I am a big exception to this rule )

That being said, I once had the "pleasure" to drive in Thailand and Indonesia. Yeah, not gonna repeat that any time soon! I find the US incredibly easy to drive, it just sort of flows better in most parts.
Wrong

Obviously given these figures:

Death rate per 1 Million inhabitants per year (2012):
Thailand: 381
USA: 116
... but among the rich countries USA is still at the back end!
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  #49  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:33
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

I don't like those stats.

Could you do the same comparison using:
- per 1,000,000km driven?
- could you state the above for deaths, accidents and serious injuries (anything requiring an overnight hospital stay).
- additionally could you add filters to normalise the data based on accidents involving single or multiple vehicles, as well as information on alcohol testing.
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Old 09.12.2014, 16:36
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

plus cite your source properly otherwise it's all bow locks
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  #51  
Old 09.12.2014, 16:40
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

Malta quite often comes out as the European country with the fewest annual deaths by head of population. When I drove there (2004?) I was impressed by the almost universally liberal interpretation of the rules of the road.... The roads at the time were so bad that it was impossible to get up to lethal speed without wrecking the suspension and losing your breakfast. I don't think I managed to get over 40mph
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  #52  
Old 09.12.2014, 17:09
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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I don't like those stats.
I am sure you don't like them. Nobody likes bad messages.

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Could you do the same comparison using:
- per 1,000,000km driven?
- could you state the above for deaths, accidents and serious injuries (anything requiring an overnight hospital stay).
- additionally could you add filters to normalise the data based on accidents involving single or multiple vehicles, as well as information on alcohol testing.
I am interested mainly in the safety of the streets aka how dangerous are the streets for everybody, for the whole population, not only for the drivers!
Therefore death rate per inhabitants is the much better approach to this issue than per driven distances.

Secondly, a death toll is also a much more reliable figure, since you can assume that – at least in developed countries – (almost) every traffic death is being reported and statistically (correctly) collected. Figures per driven distances, however, is a very unsecure figure, since their appropriateness is much worse and already based on statistical averages assumptions! So therefore much less comparable among countries. And anyhow only an rough indication for drivers' excellence.

Thirdly, the same is about true for the collection of data about injuries. They differ in even more aspects between countries. Therefore, as long as the major conditions (such as amount of cars per person are above some threshold, reliability of reported accidents, etc.) are to some extend comparable, a death rate is – statistically spoken – a much more reliable figure! Therefore is frequently used among professionals.

But to satisfy your curiosity:

See a more profound source asnwering all your questions, here: http://www.who.int/iris/bitstream/10...564564_eng.pdf

death rate per 10 billion vehicle-km (2012):

CH: 49 (here in CH: only private vehicle-km are counted!)
Germany: 49
Norway: 33 (world's best, in any figures!)
Danemark: 34
Sweden: 37
GB: 43
France: 63
USA: 76
Italy/Greece/Poland: n/a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate
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  #53  
Old 09.12.2014, 17:40
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

So, shall we return to the point, "Driving on Swiss Motorways"?

The point I was trying to make is that the measure has to be clarified in order to satisfy the original question. The stats need to be divided:
- death rate on motorways per billion km
- accident rate on motorways per billion km

For Switzerland, a country whose roads are quite extensively used by non-inhabitents the statistics can be skewed by accidents occuring by people who don't live there.

The problem lies with this type of analysis is drawing a baseline - how do you estimate KMs driven per year? In fact, defining a death can be trickier than you first think.

Any politician will tell you that statistics lie.

From a personal standpoint, and it being entirely anecdotal, I tend to sway towards Swiss roads being slightly safer than those of France/Italy.
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  #54  
Old 09.12.2014, 17:43
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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Malta quite often comes out as the European country with the fewest annual deaths by head of population. When I drove there (2004?) I was impressed by the almost universally liberal interpretation of the rules of the road.... The roads at the time were so bad that it was impossible to get up to lethal speed without wrecking the suspension and losing your breakfast. I don't think I managed to get over 40mph
Nothing has changed especially along the coastal road.
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Old 09.12.2014, 17:47
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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Nothing has changed especially along the coastal road.
Maltese Rules of the Road
#1 English drive on the left
#2 Germans drive on the right
#3 Maltese drive in the shade
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  #56  
Old 09.12.2014, 18:29
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

What dodgyken said.

If we're counting deaths per M inhabitants, then a country with very little extra-urban transportation (trains, buses, etc) could very likely have more deaths since more people are actually driving. So the low number per M inhabitants of CH is not saying much given how much people are using public transport.
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Old 09.12.2014, 18:49
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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What dodgyken said.

If we're counting deaths per M inhabitants, then a country with very little extra-urban transportation (trains, buses, etc) could very likely have more deaths since more people are actually driving. So the low number per M inhabitants of CH is not saying much given how much people are using public transport.
This is correct and indeed also my point: Of course our streets are also safer since many drive by public transport, but actually it is only 19% (including buses and the like) of the total transport performance (however one of the highest in the world).

However, if you compare the death toll against driven distances (not related to how many do not drive) the Swiss rate is still very low and is comparable to the death per inhabitants rate!! So your argument is not really strong.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/e...icationID=5643

And by the way, counterintuitively the motorways are by far the most safest streets, anywhere in the (developed) world!
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  #58  
Old 09.12.2014, 19:15
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

All these statistics are based on certain models just made to keep people busy at work. They are incomplete and do not take into account all conditions and circumstances.

Just look around you and you will quickly notice that the best drivers ever in CH come from canton AG (Achtung Gefahr)

Last edited by jacek; 14.12.2014 at 17:38.
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Old 09.12.2014, 19:42
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

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All these statistics are based on certain models just made to keep people busy at work. They are incomplete and do not take into account all conditions and circumstances.

Just look around you and you will quickly notice that the best drivers ever in CH come from canton AG (Achtung Gegahr)
I don't agree with your pessimistic ("everybody does worse than me, intentionally!") attitude, but indeed the Aargauers arn't that bad at all, but even worse than the moutainous Grisoners!

The Valaisannes and Urner however are indeed out of any reasonable measure. So take care, if you cross them!!!
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Old 09.12.2014, 20:00
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Re: Driving on CH motorways

Rules of Swiss Driving

1. There are no rules
2. See rule 1

HTH.
Nick

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I think I need some groans.

It is simple: Too many expats on the road who do not know the rules.
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