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  #201  
Old 16.08.2015, 16:27
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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To gain the free legal aid, you probably have to declare personal bankruptcy.
It's usually not enough to say "I don't have the money".

I know it doesn't sound "right" and it's easy to say "pay up" for someone who is in better financial circumstances than you obviously are.
In CH, bankruptcy does not exist in the way it is in the UK / USA. The debts don't go away for at least 20 years, if your circumstances change you will have to pay back the money with interest.
Better to go bankrupt in the UK, which has the easiest bankruptcy rules in the EU, Switzerland has to then accept the UK rules.
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  #202  
Old 16.08.2015, 21:39
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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In CH, bankruptcy does not exist in the way it is in the UK / USA. The debts don't go away for at least 20 years, if your circumstances change you will have to pay back the money with interest.
I know.
Here's a thing:
Can't the BF just lend her the 1000 CHF (650+350 + a bit for pizza, booze + some aspirin for the day-after)?
She's got 30 days to pay. I assume. Or what does the letter say?
OP: Don't ever miss that dead-line - costs will skyrocket after that.
Pay rather sooner than later.
Costs will also skyrocket if you file an appeal ("Einspruch erheben").
So, don't do any more stupid things.
IMO, the time for messing around with a lawyer has run out. Long since.
It ran out the minute you entered that police-station without a lawyer.

Sorry that you get such a mis-shaped picture of Switzerland. It's not all bad and the police is/was usually quite forthcoming.
But in recent years, attacks against officers have increased and they're understandably very itchy.
A few ruined it for everybody, I guess.
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  #203  
Old 18.08.2015, 10:43
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I am appealing for help, the prosecutor ruled I have to pay cost of the proceedings CHF 600. I don't have money to pay for that. The charges were dropped but according to the prosecutor I bear responsibility for creating the whole situation by not opening the door to the police who had no warrant to enter.

In addition, the lawyer sent me an invoice for her services provided over an email. I wrote to one lawyer with a question if she can help me in an email, and she replied with a full advice of what the decision letter means, and an invoice!

I never agreed to any payment or fees, how is she able to simply state I own her money for advice if we didn't agree, she simply decided to write a full email assuming I accept the terms rather than first saying 'yes I can help you, but for my advice over email you have to agree to pay'. I am desperate, it is adding CHF 350 on top of other charges, my funds are on minus already, I have to means to cover any charges, can someone help me?
Phew, I just read the thread and I think it is absolutely shocking how you have been treated here. There is no way in hell you should have opened your door to two banging and ranting plain-clothes people claiming to be policemen and the way they handled the situaiton was about as deeply unprofessional and as outright stupid as it gets. If they had calmly knocked on the door, explaioned who they were and shown the proper ID then this could all have been avoided, and instead they chose to act like absolute Neandethals who never had any conflict resolution training. Of course, as a single woman home alone in a new country this must have been distressing and I don't know many people who would not have done the same in your situation.

It's times like this I wish I was some hotshot expat lawyer intricately versed in Swiss law as I would take up your case and fight it for free out of sheer principle. However, sadly I'm not and this is the reason I took out legal insurance here in Switzerland to cover myself against potential unfair behaviour from any authorities. I suggest after this that you do the same.

Good luck getting this resolved either way, because it doesn't get much more of an injustice than this.

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Sorry that you get such a mis-shaped picture of Switzerland. It's not all bad and the police is/was usually quite forthcoming.
But in recent years, attacks against officers have increased and they're understandably very itchy.
A few ruined it for everybody, I guess.
Rubbish... the police have zero logical right to be defensive in this situation as there was no risk to them. They made a cock up of a situation and are simply now covering their behinds rather than admit any wrong-doing. If they had any remote sense of decency or grace they would have been stern but understanding to a very obvious situation that they created and no charges would have been pressed. It's basically a disgrace.

Last edited by Richdog; 18.08.2015 at 10:56.
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  #204  
Old 18.08.2015, 14:21
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Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Phew, I just read the thread and I think it is absolutely shocking how you have been treated here. There is no way in hell you should have opened your door to two banging and ranting plain-clothes people claiming to be policemen and the way they handled the situaiton was about as deeply unprofessional and as outright stupid as it gets. If they had calmly knocked on the door, explaioned who they were and shown the proper ID then this could all have been avoided, and instead they chose to act like absolute Neandethals who never had any conflict resolution training. Of course, as a single woman home alone in a new country this must have been distressing and I don't know many people who would not have done the same in your situation.

It's times like this I wish I was some hotshot expat lawyer intricately versed in Swiss law as I would take up your case and fight it for free out of sheer principle. However, sadly I'm not and this is the reason I took out legal insurance here in Switzerland to cover myself against potential unfair behaviour from any authorities. I suggest after this that you do the same.

Good luck getting this resolved either way, because it doesn't get much more of an injustice than this.



Rubbish... the police have zero logical right to be defensive in this situation as there was no risk to them. They made a cock up of a situation and are simply now covering their behinds rather than admit any wrong-doing. If they had any remote sense of decency or grace they would have been stern but understanding to a very obvious situation that they created and no charges would have been pressed. It's basically a disgrace.

And you still want a passport? There is a lot about Switzerland that is not as squeaky clean as you believe. The legal system is very different to the UK, the police are always right, unless you have 10 years & a lot of money to fight them in the Supreme Court. An ex did just that & won, however she will never get a top job again (she earned 12k a month at the time) too man people high places needed to apologise.
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  #205  
Old 18.08.2015, 14:30
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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And you still want a passport? There is a lot about Switzerland that is not as squeaky clean as you believe.
That post actually makes even less sense than usual. What on earth does the OP's situation have to do with me wanting a passport? And when did I ever say or suggest Switzerland was "squeaky clean"?

I am merely saying that in this instance their behaviour and handling of the (innocuous on the part of the OP) incident against one lone and frightened woman is truly disgraceful, and I can't see any evidence against that.

Last edited by Richdog; 18.08.2015 at 14:59.
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  #206  
Old 18.08.2015, 16:42
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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in this instance their behaviour and handling of the (innocuous on the part of the OP) incident against one lone and frightened woman is truly disgraceful, and I can't see any evidence against that.

I agree 100% the difference is your surprised or possibly shocked , whereas I think it's business as usual ,
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  #207  
Old 18.08.2015, 16:54
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I agree 100% the difference is your surprised or possibly shocked , whereas I think it's business as usual ,
I have personally never heard of another case like this, either in real life or on the forum in the 7 years I have been here, where essentially a vulnerable woman has been harassed in her own home by the police and then fined beyond her means for no justifiable reason other than not opening her door to two plain-clothes police thugs trying to force their way into her home who seemingly lacked the intellectual capacity to calm down and show official identification and rationally explain what they were doing. Also for seemingly not checking the name on the door to see if it was the same as the person who previously lived there. So yes, I think it is pretty outrageous on all counts even bearing in mind that the police in Switzerland are not known for being the most friendly or forgiving of officers.

If you have some other examples of similar situations with this specific context that show this is "business as usual", then please feel free to reference them for us.
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  #208  
Old 18.08.2015, 17:04
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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If you have some other examples of similar situations with this specific context that show this is "business as usual", then please feel free to reference them for us.
"Business as usual" being one (emotive) side of the situation.
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  #209  
Old 18.08.2015, 17:11
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Sorry that you get such a mis-shaped picture of Switzerland.

I don't know about the police specifically, but fined beyond your means for whatever reason might have any form or logic behind it, is the freaking norm here.


Admin fees for whatever, and people charging you for things that you never asked. And then nobody can afford to legally tell them to go themselves because, again, Switzerland.

This poor person got stuck with a 600 CHF fine because someone had to do their ing job, i.e. prosecute a case. Then she was charged for the equivalent of asking how much it will cost her.

"Hello Doctor, is this the right office?"
"Well yes, that would be 350CHF please"


It happens all the time. To the friend that got quoted 150CHF to put a helicoil on a stripped thread, and received an invoice of 350CHF without the mechanic notifying for the extra charge, as well as to all the other stories that are flying around. At work, over drinks, in EF.


Everybody's doing whatever they ing want in this country, and the prosecutors first and foremost... And again, nobody challenges them, because Switzerland.

Many expats with their cosy lives here forget that for many people it ain't freaking easy to just find 1000CHF and "just pay". Good for them that it was many years ago that they were in that position -if ever, but please keep in mind that to many people it is actually difficult to find 1000CHF or to borrow 1000CHF.

It's not pocket change for everyone you know.


/sorry for venting out like this, but sometime this country fails completely on so many levels...
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  #210  
Old 18.08.2015, 17:42
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I don't know about the police specifically, but fined beyond your means for whatever reason might have any form or logic behind it, is the freaking norm here.
So logically you're suggesting that a poor hard-up criminal should only be fined proportionally to their (legal & declared) income? No? What do you think the purpose of the fine is?
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  #211  
Old 18.08.2015, 18:02
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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So logically you're suggesting that a poor hard-up criminal should only be fined proportionally to their (legal & declared) income? No? What do you think the purpose of the fine is?
Poor choice of words because actual fines, for the most part at least, are handled quite fairly.


But charging an acquitted person a fee for doing your job is beyond unfair. She was minding your own business, sitting at home, and two cops show up without a warrant and knock on her door. She reacts normally, the cops don't and charge her erroneously (evidently) and now she owes 600 CHF for the proceedings?

You think that's a reasonable chain of events? Fair?

She's not a criminal, and she got dragged in a situation involuntarily and she's forced to pay 1000CHF that she doesn't have. And the matter of the fact is that everyone sees it as normal and to "write it off" because that's what you do here apparently...


If that doesn't qualify like an epic fail and a symptom of a generally bad situation regarding "administrative fees" and whatnot, I don't know what does...
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Old 18.08.2015, 18:10
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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So logically you're suggesting that a poor hard-up criminal should only be fined proportionally to their (legal & declared) income? No? What do you think the purpose of the fine is?
As opposed to charging someone a fine they can obviously never pay? How does that serve as a deterrent?
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Old 18.08.2015, 18:13
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Poor choice of words because actual fines, for the most part at least, are handled quite fairly.


But charging an acquitted person a fee for doing your job is beyond unfair. She was minding your own business, sitting at home, and two cops show up without a warrant and knock on her door. She reacts normally, the cops don't and charge her erroneously (evidently) and now she owes 600 CHF for the proceedings?

You think that's a reasonable chain of events? Fair?

She's not a criminal, and she got dragged in a situation involuntarily and she's forced to pay 1000CHF that she doesn't have. And the matter of the fact is that everyone sees it as normal and to "write it off" because that's what you do here apparently...


If that doesn't qualify like an epic fail and a symptom of a generally bad situation regarding "administrative fees" and whatnot, I don't know what does...
It still seems to me that something is missing from this story.

- If cops come to your door, you don't need to pay for that.
- If you phone the police station to verify they are real cops, you don't need to pay for that. The cops themselvces say, if you're not satisfied with somebody's ID, don't trust them but verify.

I'm thinking there is an underlying misunderstanding that has maybe been escalated. I'd be very surprised if nothing can be done.
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Old 18.08.2015, 18:18
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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As opposed to charging someone a fine they can obviously never pay? How does that serve as a deterrent?
It is even said in the Magna Carta (and yes I know, Swiss law bases on Napoleonic Code and not MC) that no fine should be so large as to deprive a man of his livelihood.

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(20) For a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a villein the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a royal court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood.
http://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/article...sh-translation

So it's not a new fangled liberal thing but a very old principle of law.
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Old 18.08.2015, 18:24
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But charging an acquitted person a fee for doing your job is beyond unfair. She was minding your own business, sitting at home, and two cops show up without a warrant and knock on her door. She reacts normally, the cops don't and charge her erroneously (evidently) and now she owes 600 CHF for the proceedings?

You think that's a reasonable chain of events? Fair?
I've not read the OP for a while, this being such a long thread now, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't even what they claimed as the complete course of events.
...
No, it wasn't. I suggest you re-read it.

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It still seems to me that something is missing from this story.
She said that she was prosecuted for obstructing the police in the course of their duty. One has to assume that their version of events was somewhat different to that the OP told us here.
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Old 18.08.2015, 18:48
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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It still seems to me that something is missing from this story.

- If cops come to your door, you don't need to pay for that.
- If you phone the police station to verify they are real cops, you don't need to pay for that. The cops themselvces say, if you're not satisfied with somebody's ID, don't trust them but verify.

I'm thinking there is an underlying misunderstanding that has maybe been escalated. I'd be very surprised if nothing can be done.
Agree with this, hence why if true it would be so outrageous and not at all "normal daily business" for CH.

Either something is missing that we haven't been told, or these cops were mavericks.
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Old 18.08.2015, 22:55
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Many expats with their cosy lives here forget that for many people it ain't freaking easy to just find 1000CHF and "just pay". Good for them that it was many years ago that they were in that position -if ever, but please keep in mind that to many people it is actually difficult to find 1000CHF or to borrow 1000CHF.

It's not pocket change for everyone you know.
I know.
And I've been in a situation where such a fine would have been a problem.

But as I said: the courts don't care. Unless you've filed for bankruptcy.
What you or I or the rest of EF think about it is pretty irrelevant for all practical purposes.
Well, actually the courts do care - but 600 CHF isn't considered a "big" fine - as the OP has already learned.

Getting legal cost insurance (which I don't have either) is looking more and more like a smart move...
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Old 19.08.2015, 00:09
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I've not read the OP for a while, this being such a long thread now, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't even what they claimed as the complete course of events.
...
No, it wasn't. I suggest you re-read it.

She said that she was prosecuted for obstructing the police in the course of their duty. One has to assume that their version of events was somewhat different to that the OP told us here.
Hinderung einer Amtshandlung art 286 of Swiss Criminal Code, Schweizerisches Strafgesetzbuch.
Goes like this:

Hinderung einer Amtshandlung
Wer eine Behörde, ein Mitglied einer Behörde oder einen Beamten an einer Handlung hindert, die innerhalb ihrer Amtsbefugnisse liegt, wird mit Geldstrafe bis zu 30 Tagessätzen bestraft.
Als Beamte gelten auch Angestellte von Unternehmen nach dem Eisenbahngesetz vom 20. Dezember 1957, dem Personenbeförderungsgesetz vom 20. März 2009 und dem Gütertransportgesetz vom 19. Dezember 2008 sowie Angestellte der nach dem Bundesgesetz vom 18. Juni 2010 über die Sicherheitsorgane der Transportunternehmen im öffentlichen Verkehr mit Bewilligung des Bundesamts für Verkehr beauftragten Organisationen.



Such is my thug life. Tell your kids and wives to always open the door to strangers because it doesn't pay off not to.
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Old 19.08.2015, 00:35
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Hinderung einer Amtshandlung art 286 of Swiss Criminal Code, Schweizerisches Strafgesetzbuch.
Goes like this:

Hinderung einer Amtshandlung
Wer eine Behörde, ein Mitglied einer Behörde oder einen Beamten an einer Handlung hindert, die innerhalb ihrer Amtsbefugnisse liegt, wird mit Geldstrafe bis zu 30 Tagessätzen bestraft.
Als Beamte gelten auch Angestellte von Unternehmen nach dem Eisenbahngesetz vom 20. Dezember 1957, dem Personenbeförderungsgesetz vom 20. März 2009 und dem Gütertransportgesetz vom 19. Dezember 2008 sowie Angestellte der nach dem Bundesgesetz vom 18. Juni 2010 über die Sicherheitsorgane der Transportunternehmen im öffentlichen Verkehr mit Bewilligung des Bundesamts für Verkehr beauftragten Organisationen.



Such is my thug life. Tell your kids and wives to always open the door to strangers because it doesn't pay off not to.
Gaining access to your apartment (without a search warrant) is not part of the normal activities of a policeman. It is thus legitimate to say no. The above law is more to cover things like tripping up a policeman by tieing their shoelaces together, or putting a blindfold on a tram driver while he's driving.
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  #220  
Old 19.08.2015, 00:45
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

I'm really sorry.
OTOH, there are enough stupid laws in other countries (like that "open container" thing, where you are not allowed to drink alcohol in public or the NY state ban on fireworks) that seem bizarre to us here and are often not obvious to outsiders.
The fine on the later is apparently 750 USD, BTW.
http://longisland.about.com/od/gover...York-State.htm
Which is really insane if you consider it comes from a country with 300 million guns...

But in your case, it was a concatenation of unfortunate circumstances - very sad, very costly (for you).

I think Switzerland is a bit like the US in law-related issues.
Once the prosecutor learns you have a lawyer, he will take a 2nd look at your file to see if he actually has a case. He doesn't, after all, want to embarrass himself in front of the judge.
Also true for traffic violations.

But not having a lawyer usually means it all goes via order of summary punishment (Strafbefehl) and I'm pretty sure the judge just rubber-stamps it.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafp...fehlsverfahren
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