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  #221  
Old 19.08.2015, 00:45
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

[You are quoting the law of obstruction above] bis zu 30 Tagessätzen bestraft.

This means your salary and capital are assessed and a disposable income
is calculated for one day, then a fine of up to 30 days is imposed.

So an administration charge of CHF 600,-- implies you have a minimum disposable income of CHF 20 per day.

Has anyone calculated your level of income?

I suggest you visit the prosecutor's office and ask them some straight questions:

How did they calculate the charge of CHF 600,-- ?

What happens if you refuse to pay the charge? Will you go before a judge and can you ask the judge how you have been put into this situation?

If you have a very low income, you can ask for the administration charge to be paid over one or two years.

Someone in that office might then see some sense.

At this point I would not contact the newspaper journalists. Are you in an industry with a union? Can you ask
a union for help?

I would also recommend that you visit your Gemeinde, the office where you are registered, and ask them for help, or at least where to find it. Ask the head of the Gemeinde for an interview, and explain your impossible position.

Don't pay any money until you have exhausted every line of inquiry. It might be seen as admitting you were wrong.

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  #222  
Old 19.08.2015, 08:36
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

@Joga-trn
If I were in your situation, I would probably feel very upset, too.


I agree with the advice of Sbrinz, though I would recommend you start not at the police station but at the Gemeinde. At the reception desk, I'd suggest you don't tell your whole story, at least not at first. Instead, ask to speak to a person in charge of, for example, any of the following:


- explaining the system to newcomers to the community
- helping people with their budgets
- the laws about how the police work
- women's rights
- keeping safe in your own home.


The main thing is to start somewhere. And to do so quickly, so that you do not miss the deadline by which the fine is supposed to be paid. You have to react way before then.




And when you do get to speak to someone in an office, demonstrate that you are areasonable, sane person trying to do the right thing. Try to keep as calm as possible, even though it is okay to say (but in a fairly neutral, polite tone of voice) that you are feeling desperate and exhausted and don't understand how things could have happened this way, and don't know what to do next.


I'd suggest you take someone along with you whom you trust, like a friend, a neighbour, or maybe the person you phoned (was that your landlady?) when the police first knocked at the door. That person can do several things:
a) help you to stay polite even while you are upset and even if the person you see at the Gemeinde does not, in fact, do anything helpful
b) help to answer any questions put to you
c) write down the name and rank of the person you saw, and what advice you are given by him/her, step by step, so that it's all very clear, later.
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  #223  
Old 19.08.2015, 11:35
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Poor choice of words because actual fines, for the most part at least, are handled quite fairly.


But charging an acquitted person a fee for doing your job is beyond unfair. She was minding your own business, sitting at home, and two cops show up without a warrant and knock on her door. She reacts normally, the cops don't and charge her erroneously (evidently) and now she owes 600 CHF for the proceedings?

You think that's a reasonable chain of events? Fair?

She's not a criminal, and she got dragged in a situation involuntarily and she's forced to pay 1000CHF that she doesn't have. And the matter of the fact is that everyone sees it as normal and to "write it off" because that's what you do here apparently...


If that doesn't qualify like an epic fail and a symptom of a generally bad situation regarding "administrative fees" and whatnot, I don't know what does...
If your acquitted you don't pay any admin costs & the state pays towards your legal costs. The OP was found guilty.
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I know.
And I've been in a situation where such a fine would have been a problem.

But as I said: the courts don't care. Unless you've filed for bankruptcy.
What you or I or the rest of EF think about it is pretty irrelevant for all practical purposes.
Well, actually the courts do care - but 600 CHF isn't considered a "big" fine - as the OP has already learned.

Getting legal cost insurance (which I don't have either) is looking more and more like a smart move...
Legal insurance will not cover criminal matters.
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  #224  
Old 19.08.2015, 11:57
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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If your acquitted you don't pay any admin costs & the state pays towards your legal costs. The OP was found guilty.
Being fined for something wrongly doesn't mean that it is right, or that you can't technically fight it... but without insurance I guess it's just too much of a risk for many people.

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Legal insurance will not cover criminal matters.
Smile.direct seem to offer: https://app.smile-direct.ch/legal;js...execution=e1s1

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Criminal proceedings against an insured person: CHF250'000
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  #225  
Old 19.08.2015, 11:59
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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If your acquitted you don't pay any admin costs & the state pays towards your legal costs. The OP was found guilty.
Post #188 she says the charges were dropped.
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  #226  
Old 19.08.2015, 12:15
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Post #188 she says the charges were dropped.
Then there would be nothing to pay & the state would make a contribution to your costs. If you have to pay anything it's because the judge has found the person guilty.

Amazed people are finding this concept so hard to understand.
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  #227  
Old 19.08.2015, 12:56
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Then there would be nothing to pay & the state would make a contribution to your costs. If you have to pay anything it's because the judge has found the person guilty.

Amazed people are finding this concept so hard to understand.
And that is the answer as to why politicians are not hung en-masse every day. People simply are so amazed they dont believe it. Fear has a little to do with it?
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  #228  
Old 19.08.2015, 13:35
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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And that is the answer as to why politicians are not hung en-masse every day. People simply are so amazed they dont believe it. Fear has a little to do with it?
You don't believe the OP is being economical with the truth then the OP has been found guilty by a court but is pretending otherwise. I don't think we have the full story..........
It's quite possible to be found guilty by post by a judge reading the police report, but then you have 28 days to appeal, if you don't appeal & win you are guilty.
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  #229  
Old 19.08.2015, 15:03
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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You don't believe the OP is being economical with the truth then the OP has been found guilty by a court but is pretending otherwise. I don't think we have the full story..........
It's quite possible to be found guilty by post by a judge reading the police report, but then you have 28 days to appeal, if you don't appeal & win you are guilty.
also the Op said she was billed lawyer's fees. So she must have been aware some legal thing was going on and actually spoken to a lawyer.
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  #230  
Old 19.08.2015, 19:08
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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You don't believe the OP is being economical with the truth then the OP has been found guilty by a court but is pretending otherwise. I don't think we have the full story..........
It's quite possible to be found guilty by post by a judge reading the police report, but then you have 28 days to appeal, if you don't appeal & win you are guilty.

Fatmanfilms
What court?! What Judge?! The case hasn't even gone so far to see this end.

Fatmanfilms is very quick to pass the judgement. I don't see this is worth debating. Fatmanfilms maybe you have problems comprehending the system.
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  #231  
Old 19.08.2015, 19:24
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Fatmanfilms
What court?! What Judge?! The case hasn't even gone so far to see this end.

Fatmanfilms is very quick to pass the judgement. I don't see this is worth debating. Fatmanfilms maybe you have problems comprehending the system.
Then you won't have a bill to pay, it only comes after a judge has made a decision.
I lived in CH for 20 years so do know the system & can tell when some info is missing.

You may have not been to court but a judge has decided based on the police evidence, you had 28 days to appeal if you don't that's the end of the story.
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  #232  
Old 19.08.2015, 19:30
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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But in your case, it was a concatenation of unfortunate circumstances - very sad, very costly (for you).

I think Switzerland is a bit like the US in law-related issues.
Once the prosecutor learns you have a lawyer, he will take a 2nd look at your file to see if he actually has a case. He doesn't, after all, want to embarrass himself in front of the judge.
Also true for traffic violations.

But not having a lawyer usually means it all goes via order of summary punishment (Strafbefehl) and I'm pretty sure the judge just rubber-stamps it.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafp...fehlsverfahren

Thanks, this actually helps me understand the procedure they put me through:

- Untersuchung (Art. 308 und folgende) for interrogation (Yes, in the first hour I had a chance to ask for a free state lawyer. No, I did't ask for one.)

- Einstellung des Verfahrens (Art. 319) for case dismissal

Your Wikipedia link explains the Verfahrenkosten which is what I am asked to pay. It's NOT punishment as an effect of being ruled guilty under the charge. It's the associated admin costs which are a result of a negligent act, they say I misbehaved on purpose and so in their view I am responsible for the procedure.


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[You are quoting the law of obstruction above] bis zu 30 Tagessätzen bestraft.


This means your salary and capital are assessed and a disposable income
is calculated for one day, then a fine of up to 30 days is imposed.


So an administration charge of CHF 600,-- implies you have a minimum disposable income of CHF 20 per day.

Has anyone calculated your level of income?

I suggest you visit the prosecutor's office and ask them some straight questions:

How did they calculate the charge of CHF 600,-- ?

What happens if you refuse to pay the charge? Will you go before a judge and can you ask the judge how you have been put into this situation?

If you have a very low income, you can ask for the administration charge to be paid over one or two years.

Someone in that office might then see some sense.


At this point I would not contact the newspaper journalists. Are you in an industry with a union? Can you ask
a union for help?


I would also recommend that you visit your Gemeinde, the office where you are registered, and ask them for help, or at least where to find it. Ask the head of the Gemeinde for an interview, and explain your impossible position.


Don't pay any money until you have exhausted every line of inquiry. It might be seen as admitting you were wrong.




- Charges were dropped, 'Das Strafverfahren wird eingestellt'.

- they imposed prosecution/administration fees on me, it is marked in letter as 'Gebuhr fur das Ververfahren' Where the fine amount comes from? Probably from Verfahrenkosten, see rainer_d Wikipedia link. Possible explanation:
At the time I had savings but no income so they noted income from my most recent job and wrote it in interrogation report.
It's possible they took figures from interrogation report but it's also possible they estimated how much time it took prosecution to read my case report plus translator service plus police time or they took a standard rate they charge for such incidents.

I contacted Ombudsmann in Zürich, they cannot mediate here either, it is outside their powers.

Thanks for other suggestions to everyone else.
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  #233  
Old 19.08.2015, 19:34
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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. It's NOT punishment as an effect of being ruled guilty under the charge. It's the associated admin costs which are a result of a negligent act, they say I misbehaved on purpose and so in their view I am responsible for the procedure.
So the judge says you misbehaved on purpose, that does not sound as if you were acquitted on every count, or were innocent does it?

You did not know about a judge or court in your previous post............
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  #234  
Old 19.08.2015, 19:43
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

By principle, and by the way this decision is formulated it's a different thing, but to me personally it means PROSECUTION OFFICE did not understand my motives.
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Old 19.08.2015, 20:08
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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By principle, and by the way this decision is formulated it's a different thing, but to me personally it means PROSECUTION OFFICE did not understand my motives.
Swiss law works on the principle of due process, the result is you need to pay administrative costs as you were not found to be without fault in this matter. If you had been found not guilty on all charges you would not have a bill to pay. You had 28 days to make your case if you felt the court was wrong & you acted correctly, you appear to have accepted the verdict of the court & must now pay the costs.

Plenty of guilty people would like to think they were innocent, often such people spend a long time in prison or in a mental hospital as they can't grasp the fact they were wrong, accepting that the court is correct is often the first step in criminal rehabilitation.
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  #236  
Old 19.08.2015, 20:22
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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By principle, and by the way this decision is formulated it's a different thing, but to me personally it means PROSECUTION OFFICE did not understand my motives.
WHat language did all the dealings take place in? If it were English then I wouldn't be at all surprised if they'd not been able to understand you - unless you've been deliberately obtuse since post #1 you've done a very poor job of explaining what actually happened.

So now it seems clear that the court ruled that the Police were justified in charging you, and that you were being deliberately obstructive, and/or provocative, even if they didn't actually convict you of an offence.

And it would appear, from the little information you've actually managed to communicate, that your actions after the event were also deemed unjustified, which I'm guessing is where the admin costs built up.

So is there actually any real reason that you're so keen to ask for help here, both at the time and now you're landed with a bill you can't pay, but so reluctant to explain exactly what transpired?
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  #237  
Old 19.08.2015, 23:53
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

To the awesome skiing pose avatar picture duo:

Not really sure how to answer to your accusations that I'm hiding facts. You believe in what you want to believe. The paradox of the situation is that it's a simple case but it escalated because of emotions. My panic attack, police ego, pissed-off policeman because a civilian, and a foreigner at that, ignores his commands. This is the full story, but I have a feeling that people like you will always keep conspiracy theories alive. And of course, you will always write the last post to have a final say and stay on top with your rants.

Many forum members offered helpful advice which I followed. I'm sure others reading about my incident will learn from it, will be more aware and cautious, and maybe will remember that hoping for kindness and understanding from majority of Swiss population is a mistake.

I will end with final thanks to well-intentioned posts from some who sympathised with my circumstances.

Groan at me how many times you want.
Joga-trn
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  #238  
Old 19.08.2015, 23:57
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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pissed-off policeman because a civilian, and a foreigner at that, ignores his commands
And rightly so.

You are lucky that you aren't in jail.

Sorry, but ignoring police commands is not just stupid, but illegal.

Tom
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  #239  
Old 20.08.2015, 01:19
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I contacted Ombudsmann in Zürich, they cannot mediate here either, it is outside their powers.
My thinking was that it's actually being outside institutional juridical powers the thing that makes one qualify as an ombudsman ...

Anyway, can't they address OP towards free legal help?
In the beginning of this thread, I was quite critical against OP's behavior, too; as I think a survival strategy it's not a really good thing to mistrust the police being the police. And that in some countries the consequences in obstructing legal guys with guns running behing illegal guys with guns might be really dangerous (in my understanding CH is not likely to be cited among those places, but still ... never say never).
What the laws say about the Police entering private houses and signing Statements is another thing, this is what the legal help should aim at
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Old 22.08.2015, 14:59
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Plenty of guilty people would like to think they were innocent, often such people spend a long time in prison or in a mental hospital as they can't grasp the fact they were wrong, accepting that the court is correct is often the first step in criminal rehabilitation.
This is not even remotely criminal.

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And rightly so.

You are lucky that you aren't in jail.

Sorry, but ignoring police commands is not just stupid, but illegal.

Tom
Nonsense.

The police had no search warrant, therefor no grounds to demand anything regarding OPs apartment. That demand alone may well constitute abuse of powers of office, otherwise refusing any demand by the police that is actually beyond their legal power could be considered obstruction of the police.
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