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  #81  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:20
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Can't we just agree they waste more money, time and energy on catching speeding drivers?
Absolutely not - that's not money wasted, but an investment with pretty high ROI... (at least I always felt it's more of a waylaying business than making the roads safer)
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:37
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Blah blah blah, just learn all the languages!
For all your spouting of linguistic prowess, maybe you should re-read the op? Seems like your English comprehension could use some work.

I would absolutely expect my wife to react in exactly the same way, and I sure as hell wouldn't be answering that door unarmed myself. I'm glad for you that forced entry isn't a thought that comes to your mind, but we haven't all grown up in a rubber-coated bubble, especially as a lone female, at night, in a completely new environment.

Coming from someone who worked very closely with the police back in Canada, specifically a police force commonly accused of "mafia" style, heavy handed behavior, I despise dealing with the Swiss cops. Way too aggressive too fast and not enough listening and assessing the scenario. A large part of the job is diffusing situations - these guys seem to want to escalate a parking issue into a full blown assault charge if they can.

Not all, naturally, but I'm hardly out looking for trouble and yet have seen more than enough here to keep me well away from them, if I can help it.
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  #83  
Old 05.02.2015, 11:39
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

I don't imagine the scenario would have been much different in any other country, except that in the US there would be a swat team there within minutes. Do Swiss cops have large batons?
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Old 05.02.2015, 11:45
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

Wow, the level of mistrust and dislike of the Police in this forum is quite astounding.

Whilst I am not condoning agressive and pushy Policemen, they do have a job to do. I'm not suggesting the OP should have immediately let them in and it seems on the face of it that they are being somewhat pedantic by trying to charge the OP with something, but the level of dislike and dare I say hatred to Police is really quite sad. I've had no experience of Police here in CH, but as someone from the UK who grew up knowing a Police Constable was a trusted person I think it's pretty sad.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:16
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Wow, the level of mistrust and dislike of the Police in this forum is quite astounding.

Whilst I am not condoning agressive and pushy Policemen, they do have a job to do. I'm not suggesting the OP should have immediately let them in and it seems on the face of it that they are being somewhat pedantic by trying to charge the OP with something, but the level of dislike and dare I say hatred to Police is really quite sad. I've had no experience of Police here in CH, but as someone from the UK who grew up knowing a Police Constable was a trusted person I think it's pretty sad.

Completely agree, yet it's the bed they've made themselves.

Yes, st2lemans, I'm sure that in the sunny land of Ticino the police are great and trustworthy, like everything else. But in ZH they, at times, seem to think they're working the shantytowns of rio or cape town. The power tripping can be unreal.
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  #86  
Old 05.02.2015, 12:37
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I think this, too. However nobody knows what really happened, what the non-uniformed policemen were there for.


And it's strange that OP does not see the point, besides any legal aspects.


Of course it might happen that somebody for this and the other reason doesn't understand what certain people want from them, not only linked to language and/or culture (N.B. it's not very likely to be robbed or raped in Switzerland by people with a police document, of course this might be different in other parts of the world, no idea).


But risking it consciously every day in their (new) life in the (new) place they are living in, ...



Actually I don't care. Just that I don't understand the mentality behind and why, if you dare to run the risk not to speak the language, you are complaining about? Shit like this can easily happen to you quite every day, and you can only hope it won't be worse.
Oh give it a break!

Women do NOT open their door at night to strangers when they are alone in an apartment/house.

There have been instances where women have been attacked - for this very reason, and later asked "Why did you open the door? Why did you not verify the strangers? Why did you not call for other help?".

And only a really stupid and dumb woman would take the chance that the people are who they say they are.

Rather to fight the case afterwards, than to have made a mistake and have to live with having been raped (or "just" beaten up, or robbed).

Even in the daytime I refuse to open the door to any strangers when I`m alone in the house. They can phone my husband for permission to enter, and he can then phone me to alert me to their visit.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:50
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

Further clarification regarding my case:

- The incident happened in the middle of the day around 2 pm (14:00). It was the time when most of the people in this neighbourhood are at work. To my knowledge it is the time when criminals would target old people staying home, firstly by telling them to open the door and then forcing their way through.

- What was I doing at this time home? I was studying and working, preparing for my new job!

- I am not the owner of the apartment and most of the valuable items here are not my property, if anything would happen, I would have to take blame for being silly and opening the door to two suspicious men

- The interrogating officer warned me even (maybe trying to be helpful, after causing all this stress that brought me to tears) after the interrogation, that the only thing I have to be worried in Switzerland is car parking charges and burglars who would come at the time when they don’t expect anyone home. I replied to that 'you came to my apartment in the middle of the day! people are not typically home at that time! I had the right to be worried.’ This conversation was not on record.

- It’s hard for me to be in this situation because back in the UK I was a consultant, I advised people what to do and how to do it, I stood in support of the legislation. Here it’s as if none of that counts anymore, I am just another newcomer led to believe that my defensive reaction was a threat to the police.

- I generally like police, they are trained to do their job and I admire that they have guts to do it. Don’t ignore the fact I tried to cooperate but I first needed reassurance from them, which I did’t receive. I asked the policeman after the interrogation if they don’t also get trained to be sensitive to the fact that various people react differently, and some of us are less resistant to stress and get scared due to our past experiences. He said that without seeing my face he couldn’t assume anything, because I could be anyone.

- Yes, I was a victim of crime in the UK, nothing happened to me fortunately but my things got stolen when I wasn’t home.

- Please stop these ridiculous accusations about being impolite by not using ‘Sie’ but ‘du’, I call it impolite when someone is thumping his fists against my door. When you are under Fight-or-Flight state, politeness is the last thing on your mind.

Now that many of you warned me about directly making a statement to the police, there is another thing: the interrogator told me to report to him (call) where I'm staying next week, it will probably be a hotel. By that time I will be already registered with the kreisbüro in that region. Why would I be obliged to report it to him? Now that I see he manipulated me a little, I am not sure if I can still deal with him.
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Old 05.02.2015, 12:57
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

I disagree. What you are saying is hindsight bias. It could have been a psycho killer, an out of control drunk man, a fleeing criminal running from the police, the mafia, loan shark debt collector, etc etc.
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If somebody is knocking aggressively on my door,

I'm sure they are no robbers (they would work professionally, i.e. without noise, when nobody's at home).

What I would think is that either somebody is in a big need (i.e. cries for help so it's a duty to assist),
or that my family or my friends or myself are in danger, the roof is on fire or the garage downstairs burning or something. Maybe my car parked on an emergency entrance, no idea; anyway something like that.


From what crappy countries do people come, that they always assume the 'worst' i.e. aggression towards themselves? Might not be the real worst, this one ...



Let go, never mind. OP does not appreciate.
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Old 05.02.2015, 13:05
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Wow, the level of mistrust and dislike of the Police in this forum is quite astounding.

Whilst I am not condoning agressive and pushy Policemen, they do have a job to do. I'm not suggesting the OP should have immediately let them in and it seems on the face of it that they are being somewhat pedantic by trying to charge the OP with something, but the level of dislike and dare I say hatred to Police is really quite sad. I've had no experience of Police here in CH, but as someone from the UK who grew up knowing a Police Constable was a trusted person I think it's pretty sad.
Hello, I completely agree with you. My interrogation statement even explained that in the UK a police officer would explain the reason for their visit, they are generally nice and understanding in the UK and this is what I expected. Also I stated that I never encountered an under-cover police in the UK nor anywhere else.
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  #90  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:14
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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the interrogator told me to report to him (call) where I'm staying next week, it will probably be a hotel. By that time I will be already registered with the kreisbüro in that region. Why would I be obliged to report it to him? Now that I see he manipulated me a little, I am not sure if I can still deal with him.
Because he needs to know where you are staying in case he needs to contact you.

Not doing as he says will only cause you more problems, and will not help your case.

Tom
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  #91  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:33
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

Well if you are staying at a hotel anywhere in Switzerland your passport is required when you check -in. Each day the hotels send the list of all guests registered with them on to the police so ultimately they will know where you are regardless. That's how they managed to find many foreign citizens with outstanding unpaid parking/speeding tickets in Switzerland.

That being said considering the fact that charges, under the criminal law act have been laid against against you, I think you must report to them according to their instructions. Best get legal advice quick.

Last edited by Swissish; 05.02.2015 at 17:25.
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:53
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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It's a bit late for that, the OP has made a statement 'explaining their crime / guilt', once you talk the police, they can work out what to charge you for depending on what they get you to say. It's their job & what they do every day.
She did nothing wrong, the police did, she made a statement that clears her of any so called guilt... Bloody God,,, people!!
How do you know? It is interesting that until now exactly none of you cited any law. In particular the Polizeigesetz of Canton Zurich.

or the Swiss Criminal Code

or the Swiss Criminal Procedure Code

or the Canton of Zurich Gesetz über die Gerichts- und Behördenorganisation
im Zivil- und Strafprozess


You do not understand this documents? Please see point 4) bellow.

So guys and gals who understand the above documents, are you still 100% sure, that nothing that she actually did NOR nothing what she said that she had done is illegal and may be considered as obstruction of justice (Hinderung einer Amtshandlung)?

Problem with the bold part? See point 4) bellow.


Here the points and reasons why you should not talk to the police without a lawyer:

0) You are heated and emotional. Mostly everyone is when accused of something.
1) They are professionals. Their business is to find a bad guy. A bad guy, not the bad guy.
2) They know more than you. About the case, the law, about people's reaction.
3) You do not know every aspect of the law. Specially if you are from a different country.
4) You do not speak the language. I mean not only German, French etc. but also the legal language and most importantly what is considered as intend.


Please listen to Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defense attorney


and then to listen what Mr. Gerorge Bruch, Officer of the Virginia Beach Police Departement has to say


if you now say 'Murica. Watch what Mr. Udo Vetter, a German defense attorney, has to say:

If you do not understand what he is saying: See point 4 above.

Last: You know what they say about a lawyer defending himself? He has a complete fool as an attorney!
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  #93  
Old 05.02.2015, 15:38
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Well if you are staying at a hotel anywhere in Switzerland your passport is required when you check -in. Each day the hotels send the list of all guests registered with them on to the police so ultimately they will know where you are regardless. That's how they managed to find many foreign citizens with outstanding unpaid parking/speeding tickets in Switzerland.

That being said considering the fact that charges under the criminal law act have been laid against against you I think you must report to them according to their instructions. Best get legal advice quick.
What?? Ok maybe they do in some automated way. But seriously nobody could possibly look at / process / act on it in any sort of timely way.

From wikipedia on number of swiss hotel rooms in 2011 "...a total of 38.8 million lodging nights..."
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:49
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Well if you are staying at a hotel anywhere in Switzerland your passport is required when you check -in. .
We've stayed in several hotels in different areas in Switzerland ans have never had to show our passports or any other id for check in. It would have been pretty hard to do anyway as we didn't have them with us.
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Old 05.02.2015, 16:02
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

Depending on where you live, the underlying cause may be prostitution (no offense intended), so the fact that you arrived only recently may actually have been taken as enforcement of their suspicion.

However, whatever their suspicion, they need a search warrant to enter any private property (absent immediate danger, or seeing a suspect entering, etc), uniformed or not, having shown their badge or not. Simply say you do not allow them to enter, and that's it. Not sure if you can order them to leave the building - it's private property but you don't have exclusive rights there.

Additionally, AFAIK you're not required to speak to them. If asked you need to identify yourself, and that's it. And you don't need to sign anything, not even the Einvernahmeprotokoll.

Upholding the charge looks to me like harassment, bullying ("let's teach that bloody foriner a lesson"). I wonder if they're overstepping, if it constitutes "Amtsmissbrauch" (abuse of office powers).

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... which doesn't prevent you from having to follow Police orders.
You're assuming these orders are lawful, which they clearly were not.

aSwiss, you left out the Bundesverfassung article 13, that's as "high up the ladder" as it can get:
Right to privacy
Every person has the right to privacy in their private and family life and in their home, and in relation to their mail and telecommunications.

Last edited by Urs Max; 05.02.2015 at 16:34.
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Old 05.02.2015, 16:20
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Wow, the level of mistrust and dislike of the Police in this forum is quite astounding.

Whilst I am not condoning agressive and pushy Policemen, they do have a job to do. I'm not suggesting the OP should have immediately let them in and it seems on the face of it that they are being somewhat pedantic by trying to charge the OP with something, but the level of dislike and dare I say hatred to Police is really quite sad. I've had no experience of Police here in CH, but as someone from the UK who grew up knowing a Police Constable was a trusted person I think it's pretty sad.
Nothing to do with a lack of trust in police force but more to do in not trusting anyone who could pretend to be a police officer.

In all the countries I lived, all officers told to never open the door if you are not sure it is indeed the police. Best to call the police and ask them to confirm.

I prefer to be prosecuted like the op then testing my luck and naivety.
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Old 05.02.2015, 16:32
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Well if you are staying at a hotel anywhere in Switzerland your passport is required when you check -in. Each day the hotels send the list of all guests registered with them on to the police...
I don't ever recall doing that in Switzerland. In France and Italy I've encountered it many times, but never here. In Italy they even accepted my permit B one time, as I'd forgotten to take my passport along (last-minute weekend trip).
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Old 05.02.2015, 16:46
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

I've always had to give them my id when staying at a hotel in Switzerland, but I'm Swiss.

Tom
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:00
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Nothing to do with a lack of trust in police force but more to do in not trusting anyone who could pretend to be a police officer.

In all the countries I lived, all officers told to never open the door if you are not sure it is indeed the police. Best to call the police and ask them to confirm.

I prefer to be prosecuted like the op then testing my luck and naivety.
"Prosecution" can be understood literally if you don't trust Police Forces that intend to stop you on the road. e.g.


One can't blame Switzerland that in other crappy countries Mafiosi assalt people faking to be policemen (are you kidding?). If your crappy homecountry works like that, less power to those places.
You cannot simply say "I'm a woman, I'm vulnerable, I'm fresh off the boat, I don't understand a thing, please don't bother, I'm off, the law is not for me."


Sorry.
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:10
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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"Prosecution" can be understood literally if you don't trust Police Forces that intend to stop you on the road. e.g.


One can't blame Switzerland that in other crappy countries Mafiosi assalt people faking to be policemen (are you kidding?). If your crappy homecountry works like that, less power to those places.
You cannot simply say "I'm a woman, I'm vulnerable, I'm fresh off the boat, I don't understand a thing, please don't bother, I'm off, the law is not for me."


Sorry.
This thread is a shining example of strawman reasoning. Do carry on!
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