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  #121  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:22
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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The police will often lie when doing an interview..... nothing new here.
I think the biggest problem is that you spoke to the police & made a statement, no doubt in German. You are not required to speak to them, I suspect you have confessed to something.......
So there is a right to silence in Switzerland? You are not required to answer police questions?
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  #122  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:28
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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So there is a right to silence in Switzerland? You are not required to answer police questions?
a) there is a right to silence in Switzerland
b) it's not exactly the same as in the US: Just like in Germany and other European countries do you not have to make any statement at all if you are the suspect of a crime or would have to commit any crime when answering the qestion asked. You also do not have to answer anything on direct relatives. However, if the cops come and enquire about some thing else than yourself, anything you might have witnessed, do you not have the right to silence.
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  #123  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:32
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Further clarification regarding my case:

- The incident happened in the middle of the day around 2 pm (14:00). It was the time when most of the people in this neighbourhood are at work. To my knowledge it is the time when criminals would target old people staying home, firstly by telling them to open the door and then forcing their way through.
Which is prime time of day for criminals committing burglaries. The choose this time of day in residential areas as there is high chance of there being very few people around to spot/hear them.
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  #124  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:36
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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They identify themselves
...by showing a badge (how are you supposed to know what an offical Swiss police badge looks like?). I don't understand why at least one of them was not in uniform
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  #125  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:37
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Hello, I completely agree with you. My interrogation statement even explained that in the UK a police officer would explain the reason for their visit, they are generally nice and understanding in the UK and this is what I expected. Also I stated that I never encountered an under-cover police in the UK nor anywhere else.
Well, there are occasions when plain clothes police will attend specific locations. Plain clothes for the obvious reason of not wanting to be noticed. There are also occasions where they need to gain access to apprehend suspect without having to discuss the rationale and talk about the price of milk whilst allowing the suspect to escape out of the back door or dispose of evidence, but those instances are particularly rare and done only when sufficient background checks have been done to mitigate the potential for errors. Generally, I would certainly expect someone in a position of authority to identify themselves effectively without causing a merry-old-sing-song.
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  #126  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:37
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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b) it's not exactly the same as in the US: Just like in Germany and other European countries do you not have to make any statement at all if you are the suspect of a crime or would have to commit any crime when answering the qestion asked. You also do not have to answer anything on direct relatives. However, if the cops come and enquire about some thing else than yourself, anything you might have witnessed, do you not have the right to silence.
So, the same as in the US (right to silence is only if arrested, NOT for simple questioning)

Tom
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  #127  
Old 06.02.2015, 10:45
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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I hear so many stories of people being attacked by fake policeman - it is front page news every day in 20Minuten.

I know literally hundreds of people who have opened their doors to people claiming to be the police - showing them fake ID and then murdering them.

If it wasn't such a serious theme, this would almost be funny.

You're literally know literally 100's of people who've been victim of murder by a fake policemen?? Seriously?? Surely that would make this some kind of epidemic here in this wonderful fair country benefiting of such amazing low crime rates, no?
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  #128  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:02
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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If it wasn't such a serious theme, this would almost be funny.

You're literally know literally 100's of people who've been victim of murder by a fake policemen?? Seriously?? Surely that would make this some kind of epidemic here in this wonderful fair country benefiting of such amazing low crime rates, no?
Your profile says UK, but your sense of irony feels distinctively American...

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...by showing a badge (how are you supposed to know what an offical Swiss police badge looks like?). I don't understand why at least one of them was not in uniform
Well, it's not their fault if you do not know what a badge looks like - it's the official way to ID them. You could also argue "how am I supposed to know what a Swiss police uniform looks like?"... you simply have to if you live in the country, end of.
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  #129  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:23
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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b) it's not exactly the same as in the US: Just like in Germany and other European countries do you not have to make any statement at all if you are the suspect of a crime or would have to commit any crime when answering the qestion asked. You also do not have to answer anything on direct relatives. However, if the cops come and enquire about some thing else than yourself, anything you might have witnessed, do you not have the right to silence.
This may be true in theory, but

a) I have never heard of a person being prosecuted for refusing to answer police questions.

b) In the situation and circumstances described by the OP, it would be rather absurd to prosecute for not answering questions as the OP had a good reason to doubt the identity of the policemen and did the right thing in calling 117. After that was clarified she did cooperate.
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  #130  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:29
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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This may be true in theory, but

a) I have never heard of a person being prosecuted for refusing to answer police questions.

b) In the situation and circumstances described by the OP, it would be rather absurd to prosecute for not answering questions as the OP had a good reason to doubt the identity of the policemen and did the right thing in calling 117. After that was clarified she did cooperate.
I do not know the Swiss system in detail, but in Germany is it pretty simple: If you are not cooperating in a pressing case to the level you are legally obliged to can the cops not only persecute you (which takes forever) but immediately arrest you till you do cooperate - "Beugehaft". (I remember some leftists demanding the cops to do so when Helmut Kohl refused to name the people who made the illegal donations to his party... Wikipedia reference-linkCDU_donations_scandal)
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  #131  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:30
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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What are your opinions?
I though this is how Switzerland welcomed all their new guests.

Had the exact same experience in my second week here! I was in a short term rented flat. There was loud banging at my door at 6am... 2 men dressed in black, barged in looking for a person who I guess was the previous tenant.
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  #132  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:38
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Well, it's not their fault if you do not know what a badge looks like - it's the official way to ID them. You could also argue "how am I supposed to know what a Swiss police uniform looks like?"... you simply have to if you live in the country, end of.
Just out of interest. Do you know what an official police badge looks like? How is the average punter supposed to know if he doesn't watch Tatort?

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I do not know the Swiss system in detail, but in Germany is it pretty simple: If you are not cooperating in a pressing case to the level you are legally obliged to can the cops not only persecute you (which takes forever) but immediately arrest you till you do cooperate - "Beugehaft". (I remember some leftists demanding the cops to do so when Helmut Kohl refused to name the people who made the illegal donations to his party... Wikipedia reference-linkCDU_donations_scandal)
But he wasn't arrested, and probably for a very good reason.

If the police arrest you, they must within a certain time bring you to trial and in that trial they have to prove to the judge that you know something that you're not saying. That's not exactly easy to prove. And furthermore, once you are officially arrested, you do have the right to silence, so by arresting you they are giving you a right that is totally counter-productive to what they're trying to achieve. So they may well intimidate you by threatening to arrest you, but I doubt whether they would really follow up.
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  #133  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:58
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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But he wasn't arrested, and probably for a very good reason.

If the police arrest you, they must within a certain time bring you to trial and in that trial they have to prove to the judge that you know something that you're not saying.
That's not how it works. If you insist on staying silent in questions you do not have the right to do so can a judge order the cops to arrest you and put you in Beugehaft. As the name implies is it supposed to break your resistance to the order of a court and has nothing to do with setting up a trial against you later on. Howe long? Either till the case you are supposed to testify as a witness is closed or up to 60 days.

Here, I am not making this up:
http://dejure.org/gesetze/StPO/70.html
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  #134  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:09
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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That's not how it works. If you insist on staying silent in questions you do not have the right to do so can a judge order the cops to arrest you and put you in Beugehaft. As the name implies is it supposed to break your resistance to the order of a court and has nothing to do with setting up a trial against you later on. Howe long? Either till the case you are supposed to testify as a witness is closed or up to 60 days.

Here, I am not making this up:
http://dejure.org/gesetze/StPO/70.html
So just because a policeman tells the judge that he thinks that you know something that you're not saying, he can throw you into prison? No need for evidence?

This sounds to me pretty close to the police being able to force you to agree to their version of the evidence.

You : "I did not see Herr Schmidt murder his wife"
Policeman : "Very well, we shall stick you in prison until you agree that you did see it".
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  #135  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:13
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

One thing I'm not clear on, was the OP arrested before going to the police station? Must you accompany police to the station if you have not been arrested before hand?

As far as badges are concerned, it would surely be quite easy for criminals to make their own badge. This is really all that's required to compel someone to admit them to enter your residence?
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  #136  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:14
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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So just because a policeman tells the judge that he thinks that you know something that you're not saying, he can throw you into prison? No need for evidence?

This sounds to me pretty close to the police being able to force you to agree to their version of the evidence.

You : "I did not see Herr Schmidt murder his wife"
Policeman : "Very well, we shall stick you in prison until you agree that you did see it".
I agree with you but also believe Treverus that this is how things really work.
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  #137  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:39
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Your profile says UK, but your sense of irony feels distinctively American...
No. Most definitely a Brit. British by birth, Yorkshire by the grace of God. :-)


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Well, it's not their fault if you do not know what a badge looks like - it's the official way to ID them. You could also argue "how am I supposed to know what a Swiss police uniform looks like?"... you simply have to if you live in the country, end of.
You go to the different parts of the UK and you'll find the Police there have different badges depending on which region you're in. On the Isle of Man, the Police have white pith style helmets, while many others have traditional black felt types, some regions only have the flat caps. Different departments even have baseball type caps. Some regions have blue shirts, or white shirts and even polo shirts, but for sure each region also has it's own emblem/badge. It wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't immediately recognise a badge, particularly if they have only been in the UK for a few days. Although, the Brit Police uniform is one on it's own in terms of identification!!
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  #138  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:45
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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...by showing a badge (how are you supposed to know what an offical Swiss police badge looks like?). I don't understand why at least one of them was not in uniform
Drug squad is always in plain clothes.
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  #139  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:47
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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Drug squad is always in plain clothes.
but they can be accompanied by uniformed officers when appropriate
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  #140  
Old 06.02.2015, 13:01
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Re: Unjustified police intervention and pressed charges

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One thing I'm not clear on, was the OP arrested before going to the police station? Must you accompany police to the station if you have not been arrested before hand?
No, OP says she had to appear the following morning.

Not sure what you mean by "haven't been arrested", but they can order you to make a statement on a certain matter. Also, though you're not required to carry an ID or passport or whatever, if you can't ID yourself they make take you to the station until you are (possibyl only if circumstances warrant the need to ID).

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As far as badges are concerned, it would surely be quite easy for criminals to make their own badge. This is really all that's required to compel someone to admit them to enter your residence?
Unless it's urgent it should be ok if you call 117 and have his ID verified. After all, even police cars can be "forged" and the police don't mind, badges bought on Ricardo that look quite authentic, etc.

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zentrals...eiben-14142558

http://www.ricardo.ch/kaufen/sammeln...v/an748011264/

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but they can be accompanied by uniformed officers when appropriate
That would defeat the whole thing as the idea is to not alert the bad guys.
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