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  #21  
Old 05.02.2015, 14:48
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

you missed

Fix all the faults they don't want the customers to know about but won't do a recall
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:49
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Order your own fluids and parts, and have it serviced at whatever garage you want. If you want to go to the dealer for the entry in the book service, they can't deny you installing your own parts.

They most certainly can ! A garage is under no obligation to take you as a customer, and if you bring your own parts, they can certainly refuse you or charge you a higher labour cost.

A lot will also refuse to fit non BMW approved parts too.

You think you can break the garage cartel that easy......... Think again my friend, it has been developed over numerous years to screw the punters for an absolute maximum (you & me in other words)
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:52
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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^^That can not be compared to a "cheap" oil change in the US/UK - where the oil is vacuumed out (dragging the particles from the sump back through the engine) and fresh mineral oil is added. That is OK for a OHV engine with low compression and 5,000km oil change intervals - but not for a modern car.
Trust you to come up with something like this

I thought all oil replacements were done by draining the oil through the sump plug. Surely vacuuming the oil is not cheaper than just letting it drain no?

And why would they do such a thing if draining it is better and seems somewhat more straight forward.

I realise it's a bit off topic but I'm just curious.
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:54
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

I quite often supply my own parts to garages, they don't like it, and all insist they have to be OEM parts, garage recently wanted to fit all new injectors because the o-rings had perished, 370chf each - can't get the rings on there own here they claim, OEM orings from the internet 30p each

I though UK garages tried to screw punters over, but they take it to a whole new level here.

Funnily enough it was a BMW garage who tried to charge me for all the fluids when the engine on my mini went pop, a few weeks after the service, it took a while to convince them why I shouldn't have to pay for them as they only ended up all over the road because the engine ate itself
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:55
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Trust you to come up with something like this

I thought all oil replacements were done by draining the oil through the sump plug. Surely vacuuming the oil is not cheaper than just letting it drain no?

And why would they do such a thing if draining it is better and seems somewhat more straight forward.

I realise it's a bit off topic but I'm just curious.

its a much cleaner, quicker way to do it, draining properly takes ages
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Old 05.02.2015, 14:56
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Trust you to come up with something like this

I thought all oil replacements were done by draining the oil through the sump plug. Surely vacuuming the oil is not cheaper than just letting it drain no?

And why would they do such a thing if draining it is better and seems somewhat more straight forward.

I realise it's a bit off topic but I'm just curious.
Draining - for the most part - requires a ramp and relies on gravity
Vacuuming - open bonnet, attach, suck, refill.

The latter is much much quicker - massively reducing service time. If you let it drain properly, then clean the sump plug, new washer and tighten to the correct torque - it will take much longer!
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:16
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Trust you to come up with something like this

I thought all oil replacements were done by draining the oil through the sump plug. Surely vacuuming the oil is not cheaper than just letting it drain no?

And why would they do such a thing if draining it is better and seems somewhat more straight forward.

I realise it's a bit off topic but I'm just curious.
No it isn't quicker. Just 'easier' / less dirty. But you won't get 100% of the oil out using this method I'm told.
It even happens at the Audi dealer here I know.
Since I know this I always ask to please do it the classic way for my car.
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:22
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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They most certainly can ! A garage is under no obligation to take you as a customer, and if you bring your own parts, they can certainly refuse you or charge you a higher labour cost.

A lot will also refuse to fit non BMW approved parts too.

You think you can break the garage cartel that easy......... Think again my friend, it has been developed over numerous years to screw the punters for an absolute maximum (you & me in other words)
They can refuse all they want, if they don't want my business, I can take it elsewhere. In any case, I only go for heavy work and if I could get some decent space I'd only use a garage for sheet-metal work.

Oh how I miss my days in Athens, where I was friends with my mechanic and we would hang out, I would help out occasionally, and he would always let me work on my car when he didn't have any cars in...

And about the parts, it's perfectly doable to go on and get OEM parts on your own at much better prices. I've taken BMW parts in BMW packages to dealers for half price they were offering.

I realise that dealers make margin on parts, service, accessories, but in Switzerland where they also want to make margin in the actual car sales and are borderline abusive in used car sales, I have zero incentive to go to them if I can help it. Emil Frey Nord quoted me 150Fr on a set of freaking wipers, and refused to sell me the rubber refill that would cost about 10Fr on the rest of the civilised world... Only reason I was there was a couple of factory-ordered parts that I couldn't find anywhere else.


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That can not be compared to a "cheap" oil change in the US/UK - where the oil is vacuumed out (dragging the particles from the sump back through the engine) and fresh mineral oil is added. That is OK for a OHV engine with low compression and 5,000km oil change intervals - but not for a modern car.
Vacuuming is done with a small tube that goes all the way down to the sump. No used oil or particles touch the engine, it's not like someone puts a vacuum on the filler cap and sucks everything from there. It's a perfectly good way of changing oil, and in BMWs with the oil filter on top it's amazingly easy that you don't have to go under the car. In other cars that you have to go under anyway to change the filter, little reason to do it if any...
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:29
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Vacuuming is done with a small tube that goes all the way down to the sump. No used oil or particles touch the engine, it's not like someone puts a vacuum on the filler cap and sucks everything from there. It's a perfectly good way of changing oil, and in BMWs with the oil filter on top it's amazingly easy that you don't have to go under the car. In other cars that you have to go under anyway to change the filter, little reason to do it if any...
@Dodgyken: Back to you sir!
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Old 05.02.2015, 15:36
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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@Dodgyken: Back to you sir!
I'd like to see him do a suction oil change on a "modern" petrol BMW
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  #31  
Old 05.02.2015, 16:14
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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its a much cleaner, quicker way to do it, draining properly takes ages
So this oil change business is somewhat similar to quick sex then ?

(Or have i misunderstood something again?)
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Old 05.02.2015, 16:28
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

I can only really say from my experience with older cars, when I've drained the oil there is literally loads of crap at the bottom of the engine, particles of metal, even bits of sealant / gaskets etc (remember, old engines) if you Vacuumed the oil out there is no way you'd get all this crap out, its settled right at the bottom of the sump, and it can also take around an hour to get it all (again, doing it properly) then you can flush more crap out with some new oil etc. Its a crap job, you have containers of oil on the floor, oil pouring out, and then running along the block and dripping everywhere

When a main dealer Vacuumed the oil out on one of our cars it took a couple of minutes (no choice, the only way it can be done on this motor)

Next time you get your car serviced just look at how crappy the old oil is, do you really want all that crap circulating round your engine?
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  #33  
Old 05.02.2015, 16:30
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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I'd like to see him do a suction oil change on a "modern" petrol BMW
Yeap, dipsticks are gone and oil levels are checked only electronically from the BC. But the principle stands

Nothing circulates in the engine, and whatever gets dragged down and through the hole in the oil sump, can get dragged up and through the pipe of the pump.
The end of the pipe is in roughly the same shape and roughly the same size.

Last edited by Don Molina; 05.02.2015 at 16:55.
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  #34  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:06
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Good tips Don Molina, will have to remember to do this next time. Will have to ask the BMW garage which fluids I should buy for them to use.

You're right I don't see why they would refuse that I bring my own stuff, people just get stung because they're too embarrassed to ask or they don't want to look like cheap skates. Smart move in my opinion, if it takes me 15 minutes to order some parts / fluids and have it delivered and save CHF200 / CHF500 then it's time well spent.
If you bring your own oil to the garage, do they charge corkage
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  #35  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:09
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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Yeap, dipsticks are gone and oil levels are checked only electronically from the BC. But the principle stands

Nothing circulates in the engine, and whatever gets dragged down and through the hole in the oil sump, can get dragged up and through the pipe of the pump.
The end of the pipe is in roughly the same shape and roughly the same size.

you misunderstand what I'm saying, all the crap settles at the bottom, now unless your Vacuume hose is some kinda clever robotic hose its not going to stuck every nook and cranny in the sump, think sucking a thick milkshake in a tall glass with a thin straw, there is always something left in the bottom, so you refill the oil, and that crap is now free to circulate again, and thats if the oil monkey bothered to do his job properly in the first place. Sump plug removed and let it drain gives you way less chance or anything being left in there, a bit of engine flush and refill FTW
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:13
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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you misunderstand what I'm saying, all the crap settles at the bottom, now unless your Vacuume hose is some kinda clever robotic hose its not going to stuck every nook and cranny in the sump, think sucking a thick milkshake in a tall glass with a thin straw, there is always something left in the bottom, so you refill the oil, and that crap is now free to circulate again, and thats if the oil monkey bothered to do his job properly in the first place. Sump plug removed and let it drain gives you way less chance or anything being left in there, a bit of engine flush and refill FTW
I'm sorry but what is the difference between this vacuum and a gravitational flow? If anything, faster flow will take more debris with it so less will be left at the sides of the sump...Additionally, you can then use flushing liquid and do it really quickly and environmentally friendly (no spillages of any kind, closed loop flushing). I really don't know what is this discussion about now? Vacuuming should also be cheaper in CH as it takes less time and effort (which cost a lot here).
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  #37  
Old 05.02.2015, 17:18
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

no one is saying its anything but quicker and cheaper, personally, given a choice, I'd rather not have my oil removed like that
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:22
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

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no one is saying its anything but quicker and cheaper, personally, given a choice, I'd rather not have my oil removed like that
Me too - especially with modern oils. If you want your oil to last for 25,000km the least I would expect is the change is carried out in the best possible way. The whole point of draining is that as the liquid flows out it takes as many bits with it. (Dad and I used to filter the oil after a change to check for excessive levels of particulates).
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:28
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

Well if we're going to talk about oil changes every 25k Km and then you're going to tell me about how much residue the drain will take out more than the pumping, I just don't see any point in discussing

If you flush, yes you'll take out more, but again, for both methods.

Anyway, to each their own. I prefer 10k changes of good synthetic oil and I'll do whatever's less messy and easier since I do it myself.
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Old 05.02.2015, 17:34
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Re: Bmw oil change for chf1,000 ?! - advice please

Well, I found this (below) on another forum. I post it verbatim with no guarantee of accuracy.

I imagine if the dipstick extends to almost the bottom - and to the lowest part of the sump - then technically I don't see much of a problem with vacuum extraction.

I'm sure Mercedes-Benz R&D have made design modifications and conducted extensive tests to validate the principle - and have also designed the corresponding evacuation equipment.

Otherwise, do you think (with normal drainage) all of the particles at the bottom of the sump flow out easily via gravity-assist with such a viscous liquid and with no other agitation to dislodge them (pick up car and shake it around)?

On the other hand, is there really so much crap there ? I did an oil change on an old honda once - think the owner didn't even know what oil was - and there were a few particles having a get-together on the magnetic drain plug, but as I stuck my finger into the sump to inspect, there wasn't much else clinging to the surface - except oil. Surprised me.

**************************************************

DATE: July 1997
SUBJECT:
ALL MODELS
OIL EVACUATION EQUIPMENT
Mercedes-Benz engines are designed to allow engine oil extraction from under the hood via the dipstick tube. The dipstick tube has an enlarged cross section and a formed extension at the top end. On the other side it ends a short distance from the oil pan bottom. Engine oil can be extracted using the dipstick tube.

Engine oil drain plugs will continue for the time being, although access to them may only be possible with the removal of engine compartment trim or noise encapsulation panels.
************************************************** *******************************


Date: March 2001
Order No.: S-SI-58.00/118
Supersedes:
Group 58
SUBJECT:
ALL ENGINES
APPROVED OIL EVACUATION EQUIPMENT
The purpose of this Service Information is to inform dealers that Approved Oil Evacuation Equipment, which is used to extract used engine oil from the engine via the oil dipstick tube, is now available for order. Mercedes-Benz engines are designed to allow the extraction of engine oil from under the hood via the dipstick tube. The engine dipstick tube has an enlarged cross section, plus a formed extension at the top end where the dipstick is inserted and the approved engine oil evacuation equipment interfaces. The opposite end of the dipstick ends just short of the oil pan bottom, thus engine oil can be extracted via the approved oil evacuation equipment by using the dipstick tube. Additionally, the engine dipstick tube itself is the conduit through which spent engine oil is moved to the oil evacuation equipment.
In addition, service and repair components for existing approved oil evacuation equipment is also available.
Note: Because the engine oil dipstick tube is the conduit through which spent engine oil is extracted, inserting tubular probes through the dipstick tube is NOT recommended.
Special Note for M-class:
Due to the location of the vehicle frame and suspension components, the draining of engine oil via the engine crankcase oil drain plug is not recommended, since this can lead to engine oil coming in contact and subsequently be damaging to the rubber suspension components. Thus, it is strongly recommended to use the approved oil evacuation equipment contained in the Service


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