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  #121  
Old 02.05.2015, 23:55
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

In Switzerland they're taught NOT to indicate except when exiting the roundabout (which they usually don't bother doing either).
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  #122  
Old 03.05.2015, 00:02
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

Drivers seem very reactive. Say i'm on the highway, left lane and I'm going to pass the guy to the right...maybe he's doing 110 or so. So I'm doing 120 and as i pass the guy on the right, he speeds up to 120 too. Sometimes i think it's aggression, sometimes dipshit drivers, but often i wonder if it's just a reactive thing - the driver to the right matches my speed as a reaction. It's annoying.

But i do notice that drivers in Bern were less aggressive than drivers in zurich. Lots of tailgating. And we have a big underground garage. Why is it that people have to rev their engines and speed up to go 100m to their parking space.
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  #123  
Old 03.05.2015, 00:32
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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I've no problem with them not indicating to leave, which seems to be about 50% the norm, but when coming round a roundabout with an exit at >180deg to your entrance it's somewhat more than good practice to indicate left until you pass the exist before the one you're taking - I had a couple of close calls at one particular one, when it first opened, with cars not signalling at all, and the (crap) road layout meant their intentions were far from clear.

IAM/UK Police guidelines are to indicate right (in the UK) for any exit that's more than 180 deg from your entrance road.
According to Swiss regulations, you can use a roundabout without a protractor and a compass. No indicating at all until you are about to exit.

Can't get any simpler, and makes perfect sense. But even that simple rule is not followed, yep, I guess about 50%, as you wrote.

And that IS annoying imho, of course not when you are behind one of those tw@ts, but when you are waiting at the entrance and they do not indicate their intention to exit on your left, you are legally obliged to wait because you have to assume they stay in the circuit but they don't, so you could have gone if you had known. That's what I call extreme carelessness.
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  #124  
Old 03.05.2015, 00:41
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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but when you are waiting at the entrance and they do not indicate their intention to exit on your left, you are legally obliged to wait because you have to assume they stay in the circuit but they don't, so you could have gone if you had known. That's what I call extreme carelessness.
Well yes, and what's worse is that because it differs from the norm in other countries it's also likely to cause the opposite problem, where you assume that they _are_ leaving because of lack of left indication. Consider France, where normal practice is to indicate left even if you're planning to go straight on. Equally bonkers.
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  #125  
Old 03.05.2015, 07:26
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Well yes, and what's worse is that because it differs from the norm in other countries it's also likely to cause the opposite problem, where you assume that they _are_ leaving because of lack of left indication. Consider France, where normal practice is to indicate left even if you're planning to go straight on. Equally bonkers.
I don't get that!!

I am on the center lane and they will pass me by the left, go straight in front on my car and their left signal is on.

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  #126  
Old 03.05.2015, 09:40
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Drivers seem very reactive. Say i'm on the highway, left lane and I'm going to pass the guy to the right...maybe he's doing 110 or so. So I'm doing 120 and as i pass the guy on the right, he speeds up to 120 too. Sometimes i think it's aggression, sometimes dipshit drivers, but often i wonder if it's just a reactive thing - the driver to the right matches my speed as a reaction. It's annoying.

But if there is enough space to do this, and it is quite rare on highways to be this empty, where is the problem ?
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  #127  
Old 03.05.2015, 11:27
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Drivers seem very reactive. Say i'm on the highway, left lane and I'm going to pass the guy to the right...maybe he's doing 110 or so. So I'm doing 120 and as i pass the guy on the right, he speeds up to 120 too. Sometimes i think it's aggression, sometimes dipshit drivers, but often i wonder if it's just a reactive thing - the driver to the right matches my speed as a reaction. It's annoying.
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But if there is enough space to do this, and it is quite rare on highways to be this empty, where is the problem ?
It means that the overtaking vehicle is then unable to move back into the right lane without further accelerating, so either is forced to go faster than they wanted to or forms a rolling roadblock for other traffic in the left lane that does want to go faster.
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  #128  
Old 03.05.2015, 21:31
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Well yes, and what's worse is that because it differs from the norm in other countries it's also likely to cause the opposite problem, where you assume that they _are_ leaving because of lack of left indication. Consider France, where normal practice is to indicate left even if you're planning to go straight on. Equally bonkers.
Time for you to launch a petition for France to adapt swiss practice

Kidding aside:
You need to differentiate between normal branchings and crossings, which may just so happen to have circular form (for lack of a better word, even if it's sounds rather odd), and the thing called Kreisverkehr, Kreisverkehrsanlage (roundabout).

Circular crossings share no general defining attributes other than not being a roundabout, but of course ordinary traffic rules apply. Like anywhere else in continental Europe I'm aware of, lack of particular signposts (e.g. no traffic lights, no give-way sign), which is usually accompanied by white rectangles on the ground, means "Rechtsvortritt"(give right of way to the right). This is obviously less than perfect as any road that carries a sufficient amount of traffic can, and will eventually, block circulation in the circle, and thereby eventually jam all participating roads including itself.

The thing called Kreisverkehr (roundabout) is indicated by the blue circular signpost with the triangular red-white "give right of way" sign above and white triangles on the ground at the point of entry (plus blue signs in the center indicating direction of traffic). This is identical for every road that ends in the roundabout. Therefore if your road has these signs, by definition all other entering roads have them, too, and you know that while in the roundabout your lane has right of way against those about to enter.

Put another way, the roundabout is equivalent to a main road with its own lane(s), which have way of right against all others. Thus changing lanes within the roundabout or leaving the roundabout requires blinking. This is the identical concept when, on a main road that makes a left or right turn or a u-turn, you don't need to blink if you stay on your lane. The same concept applies to a mountain serpentine where you don't blink if you do a u-turn simply to follow the road.

Being perfectionists, the swiss will usually (always?) implement roundabouts. Conversely, circular crossings appear to be (still?) prevalent in France.

Chances are that France merely lags a bit behind the more advanced countries
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  #129  
Old 03.05.2015, 21:58
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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In Switzerland they're taught NOT to indicate except when exiting the roundabout (which they usually don't bother doing either).
Drives me absolutely nuts- but as said above, no better in France! When I took my driving licence in Neuchâtel in 1969- roundabouts didn't exist. Negotiating roundabouts in central London was certainly a bit of a shock. Roundabouts are a relatively recent addition to both Switzerland and France- and some of the older people still haven't got a clue and still think 'priorité de droite' is still the norm!

I always indicate- and hope it might rub off on the locals - but I am not hopeful.
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  #130  
Old 03.05.2015, 22:22
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

So happy to find this post! When I first arrived I was shocked by the ridiculous driving, I mean it isn't India or Africa but seriously swiss tailgate like non other......
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  #131  
Old 04.05.2015, 08:25
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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So happy to find this post! When I first arrived I was shocked by the ridiculous driving, I mean it isn't India or Africa but seriously swiss tailgate like non other......
Braking systems are much more effective in Switzerland, and drivers have much faster reaction times.
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  #132  
Old 04.05.2015, 09:08
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

Why such aggressive drivers?

I personally think that the CH drivers are not aggressive but downright rude and there is no way to counter them, they are always right !!! I therefore drive a big powerful car and I keep within the speed limits no matter how close the vehicle behind gets to me. I just wonder at their utter rudeness.
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  #133  
Old 04.05.2015, 10:18
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Why such aggressive drivers?

I personally think that the CH drivers are not aggressive but downright rude and there is no way to counter them, they are always right !!! I therefore drive a big powerful car and I keep within the speed limits no matter how close the vehicle behind gets to me. I just wonder at their utter rudeness.
Nice first post.

Much of the problem is caused by a highly regulated road system system which requires total discipline and compliance with all the rules and leaves no room for error, while at the same time Swiss drivers can afford to drive some of the hottest kit on the planet.

Result total frustration...
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  #134  
Old 04.05.2015, 10:52
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

Pity a number of them whilst they can afford the hottest kit on the planet, don't know how to drive the hottest kit on the planet.
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  #135  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:25
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

Germany - Motorway between Rheinfelden exit and the A5 (notoriously occupied by LÖ-plated automobiles)

Me - driving at ca. 140 km/h in the left-hand lane overtaking. A fast white Mercedes approaches from behind at a rate of knots far in excess of mine, flashing lights at me to change lanes (and presumably crash into the car I was overtaking).

Naturally I continued my overtaking actions - at which point he showed off his driving skills by reducing the effective distance between him and myself to the point where flashing his lights became ineffective, as I was unable to see them through the metal structure of the rear of my car.

I duly moved over earlier than originally planned, but when it was safe to do so (and actually possible), at which point he then overtook and impressed me further by his abilities to steer his car across the line to within a few millimeters of mine - I assume this was to maintain some sort of aerodynamic advantage using my car. This must have worked as he then was able to accelerate away extremely quickly.

But this was his downfall: in concentrating on a) perfoming his aerodynamic advantage manoeuvre, and b) misjudging the phenomenal effects it had, he failed to see that a Jaguar had migrated to the left-hand lane in front of him. I think he wanted to show us all that he could actually drive under a car, but instead he showed off the braking performance of his car (had it been a truck that pulled out, he would likely be left inspecting the axle structure at very close quarters..)

In other words: highly aggressive - but he nearly paid the ultimate price. Some fast car drivers do drive, well, fast, but they behave themselves. Look how many times you see the aftermath on the A5 towards Freiburg - smashed up barriers, skid marks going in directions that seem physically impossible..
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Old 04.05.2015, 11:31
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

I can put up with aggression and even rudeness (I'm from London), but what I find so disheartening is the basic lack of courtesy. Never giving way (it's my way so to hell with everyone) and never saying thank you when you give them way. Instead I get an impatient toot from the idiot behind and a bewildered look from the car I am motioning to go before me, almost as if to say 'we don't do that here mister'.

And don't get me started on pedestrians who just step off the curb without looking and then don't even bother to acknowledge you for stopping for them.
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Old 04.05.2015, 11:47
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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I can put up with aggression and even rudeness (I'm from London), but what I find so disheartening is the basic lack of courtesy. Never giving way (it's my way so to hell with everyone) and never saying thank you when you give them way. Instead I get an impatient toot from the idiot behind and a bewildered look from the car I am motioning to go before me, almost as if to say 'we don't do that here mister'.
I slowed to stop at a pedestrian crossing once here and the car behind tried to overtake me and nearly took out the people on the crossing.

Another time, I heard sirens behind me on the motorway when traffic was basically at a standstill so I pulled over to let the ambulance past but the cars behind me thwarted its journey by trying to pass me.

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And don't get me started on pedestrians who just step off the curb without looking and then don't even bother to acknowledge you for stopping for them.
I get friendly acknowledgements almost every time. You're not revving your engine or something like that when they cross, are you?
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  #138  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:03
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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Drivers seem very reactive. Say i'm on the highway, left lane and I'm going to pass the guy to the right...maybe he's doing 110 or so. So I'm doing 120 and as i pass the guy on the right, he speeds up to 120 too. Sometimes i think it's aggression, sometimes dipshit drivers, but often i wonder if it's just a reactive thing - the driver to the right matches my speed as a reaction. It's annoying.
I notice this too, in CH and DE. It's as if they notice you and think "hey, where do you think you're going, matey."

Alternative #1: are the drivers in the left hand lane, also overtaking (at Vdiff<=0.1 km/h), who then pull back in and then speed up - sometimes really putting their foot down!

Alternative #2: being overtaken by a car, which just sits there in your blind spot, creeps past you millimetre by millimetre, finally pulls back in (after 3 hours) and then shoots off !

Alternative #3: same as above, but after 2 hours, they give up and pull back in.

Alternative #4: Same as #2, but they don't shoot off, instead pulling in so close that you're then a tailgater, unless you overtake (but then they speed up - sigh) or you ease off.
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  #139  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:33
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

Yes. In Germany, and here, flashing your lights means "get out of my way", whereas in England it generally means "I've seen you - you can pull out".

Years ago, when I lived in Germany, I drove back to England. Remembered to switch sides but forgot to switch courtesy mode. So, when I wanted to pull out to overtake, and the guy coming up fast behind in the overtaking lane flashed his lights, I reacted instinctively by making a rude gesture. Utterly ashamed of it afterwards, of course, when I realised that he was slowing down to let me pull out.

I was driving a German-registered car, so that courteous driver will have assumed I was a rude German.
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  #140  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:43
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Re: Why such aggressive drivers?

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I was driving a German-registered car, so that courteous driver will have assumed I was a rude German.
No harm done then
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