Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:02
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 9,837
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 17,507 Times in 6,684 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
if somebody has to cross your garden to knock at yor door (without having been implicity invited ie the postman), is this legally considered trespassing?
If they make it across the minefield they deserve to knock
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:25
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
if somebody has to cross your garden to knock at yor door (without having been implicity invited ie the postman), is this legally considered trespassing?
Not 100% sure about Switzerland, but in the UK you have a concept called "implied right of access" meaning that anybody from the postman to friendly neighbours to encyclopedia salesmen or even the police can assume that you grant them the right of crossing your garden for the purpose of coming to your door to deliver you something or speak to you unless you specifically revoke that right by making or posting a statement to that effect. You can in fact make this statement when they are already at your door in which case they must leave immediately. Yes, you can technically even ban police from entering your land or send them away. That is, until they come with a search warrant.

In Switzerland the law is more nuanced. I think you cannot ban the postman. I am not sure about the police. But you can as far as I know ban or evict anybody else. You might need to talk to a lawyer to have your exact rights explained to you as its probably a bit more complex than that.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:28
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Is there actually a trespass law in Switzerland?

For example, in the UK - England has a trespass law, but Scotland doesn't - but the result isn't that different. You have the right to enjoy your garden and immediate house surrounds privately, so it's protected more by potential damage to this right than any "trespass".

Somebody coming to your door to knock wouldn't be trespass - how else are they supposed to get your attention?

If you put a gate and an intercom at the front of your drive, then maybe.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:31
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
Yes, you can technically even ban police from entering your land or send them away.
Not in all of the UK - in Scotland there is no trespass law or right to prevent access without good reason, so access to land outside the immediate surroundings of a property (e.g. farmland) is free unless damage is caused, or access would be dangerous.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank newtoswitz for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:36
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
Is there actually a trespass law in Switzerland?

For example, in the UK - England has a trespass law, but Scotland doesn't - but the result isn't that different. You have the right to enjoy your garden and immediate house surrounds privately, so it's protected more by potential damage to this right than any "trespass".

Somebody coming to your door to knock wouldn't be trespass - how else are they supposed to get your attention?

If you put a gate and an intercom at the front of your drive, then maybe.
Trespass is called Landfriedensbruch in German. I guess the exact legal definition may differ in some nuances but by and large the underlying concept is the same.

I don't think people have an inalienable right to come and tell you something. If you won't let them onto your land and you won't come out, that's it. They can't tell you something. In Switzerland the post is the official way by which the authorities correspond with you. This is why by law every domicile must have a letter box and you must grant the postman access to that letterbox, and why addresses are legal identifiers and houses need to have their numbers attached in a certain font and format to prevent confusion with a number somebody painted on their house because it was their favourite number or something. In the UK, by contrast, house numbers are a historical concensus and sometimes defy logic.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:51
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,988
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,273 Times in 5,015 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone).
To avoid door knockers, I suggest you buy a door bell. If you're at someone else's door, the you could try shouting loudly, or perhaps phone them so they know you're requesting attention.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 29.04.2015, 10:58
TiMow's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 9,310
Groaned at 292 Times in 196 Posts
Thanked 12,189 Times in 5,300 Posts
TiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond reputeTiMow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

You could always say that Dave's not here.


Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 29.04.2015, 11:00
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 10,977
Groaned at 542 Times in 342 Posts
Thanked 10,578 Times in 5,410 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

1. all direct door knocking salesmen have to carry a permit issued by the local police. If you suspect one is knocking on your door, then call the police.

2. fit a spyhole to your door, don't open the door unless you wish to.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 29.04.2015, 11:18
Jern's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bern
Posts: 907
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,091 Times in 470 Posts
Jern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

I have fitted a metal bucket in a recess in the ceiling just outside our apartment door. It's filled with about three quarts of old engine oil, which I keep at a steady temperature of 160 degrees using an old immersion heater. Inside the flat, there's a lever which I can pull, to dump the oil over any unwanted door-knockers.

I've only had to use it once - on some pesky carol-singers. I'd hesitate before using it again, though, because it was a heck of a job cleaning up afterwards. Still, at least we don't get carol-singers any more.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Jern for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 29.04.2015, 11:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,467
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,230 Times in 824 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Oh, Jern, you made me laugh out loud! Couldn't help visualising that. And what if someone then came by to tell you about ways to save electricity?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 29.04.2015, 11:49
Jern's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bern
Posts: 907
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 1,091 Times in 470 Posts
Jern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond reputeJern has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
Oh, Jern, you made me laugh out loud! Couldn't help visualising that. And what if someone then came by to tell you about ways to save electricity?
Yes, now I see that there is a flaw in my boiling oil solution. Damn.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 29.04.2015, 12:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,054
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,793 Times in 1,958 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

Quote:
View Post
Trespass is called Landfriedensbruch in German.
Landfriedensbruch deals with groups rioting on public ground, or similar. Think hooligans before or after a match, the "Nachdemo" on 1st of Mai in Zurich, the "Reclaim the Streets" last December in Zuric, etc.

I think the remainder is correct with respect to CH, people can't be forced to let anybody on their ground, or answer a ringing doorbell, or even have a doorbell.

Quote:
View Post
if somebody has to cross your garden to knock at yor door (without having been implicity invited ie the postman), is this legally considered trespassing?
Art. 186 Criminal Code, Hausfriedensbruch (unlawful entry)

Irrespective of any other circumstances or prior happenings, if any lawful occupant says s/he wants the trespasser to leave that must be obeyed without delay. This applies to a closed building as well as its compound. And yes, that also applies to officials including police, and the reason why the search warrant convers not only the apartment but also the building itself and its compound.

OP, you may want to inform your family accordingly. The police will answer such a call, especially if the callers are afraid or think if it's to prepare burglary.

186 mentions "agains the will", which of course requires expressing. The german text mentions "umfriedet", which means fenced, hedged, walled, or a combination thereof. Such a demarcation must be uninterrupted in order to "count" fully, and thus if, say, the driveway to the garage is unfenced it's ok to access at least that driveway, maybe (subject to circumstances on the compound) a larger part.

In this verdict(german) an animal protector accessed the compound exactly using such an unfenced driveway of a partially fenced compound. The owner reported her, but the verdict essentially says "the area used was not fenced thus access was ok". It also mentions that the renter's own impression/feeling about privacy of the driveway did not matter.

That last part is important with respect to entering a garden - highly unusual around here, and probably many would say entering a garden is "private" and thus off limits, but given the verdict above that apparently is of no importance.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 29.04.2015, 12:59
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 1,158
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 1,310 Times in 596 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Permanently Avoid Annoying Door Knockers (useful for everyone)

It obviously depends a lot on the context - if I saw someone unknown at the side or back of my house, I'd call the police, take a photo, and depending on their size decide whether to personally approach them.

If they're in a direct line up my drive to the door I'd assume they think they have some business being there, and see what they say. I have no problem saying "Dass interessiert mich nicht" and shutting the door on them (and no worry if it's bad German ).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
knock




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AVOID - London Stansted Airport - AVOID Castro Transportation/driving 30 15.10.2014 13:01
Everyone: Anyone who want to talk politics - boring, annoying or harmless? Upthehatters2008 International affairs/politics 1 31.08.2011 18:08
Letter Plate and Door Knockers sensitivechap Other/general 4 25.01.2011 19:55
Looking for a door to door delivery service in Switzerland david32 Daily life 7 09.10.2010 21:02
For Sale (THALWIL) - Useful Children's two door wardrobe anjulie Items for sale 0 06.09.2009 11:53


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0