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  #41  
Old 01.06.2015, 11:31
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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That has been our experience as well - we've encountered more racism here than we ever did in the UK.
I have seen it more here as well, but none of it have turned to phsycial violence. The locals feign naivete about racism, as they probably haven't seen the worse of it. Whereas racism is rarely aired explictly where I come from, yet physical violence from it abound. Go figure.

I think the dickheads found an opportunity to harass someone or a group (OP) who they thought could not respond back, and they can get away with it.. That is apparently the case here. but I found these guys can't really handle a real confrontation. One step towards them, and they back up rather quickly.

Which I wish the OP would just have popped him in the eye, and that would be one less idiot doing such things around here. But the worse thing you can do in such situations is to sweat or get scared. Because that was the intent, and it only encourages them.

Squaring up to idiots is an effective approach to deterring them here, from my experience.
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  #42  
Old 01.06.2015, 12:14
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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I suppose you could say the same, for instance, about those who drive around with the confederate flag on their trucks….
"Down south of the Mason-Dixon, friends
Rebels are rockin' and rollin' in
Confederate money they are ready to spend
South's gonna rise again, hallelujah
South's gonna rise again, well ah-ah
South's gonna rise again"


The question is actually interesting, why are some people wistful for systems that lost their fights? Inca v. Spain, Indians v. Settlers, Nazis v. Allies etc. that list goes on and on...
Because the losing side has a certain element of what might have been. People unhappy with the status quo may be quick to assume that had something in history worked out differently, things would have been better (for them).

Many people assume that had North America not be colonized, the Native Americans would have created a far more peaceful culture than what there is now.

Many Muslims like to believe that had they not been kicked out of Spain, that it would now be heaven on earth.

Many lefties believe that had Mrs Thatcher never come to power that the Winter of Discontent would have been the first step on the road to rainbows and unicorns without end,

The attractive thing about these theories is that you can't prove them one way or the other but only speculate.
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  #43  
Old 01.06.2015, 12:19
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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- "yeah, but things could have been even worse"

- "how's that?" asked the interviewer, somewhat confused,

- "I could have been born black, too" came the reply.
Didn't Monty Python do something similar in the Meaning of Life, leading to a sudden interruption of the film and a profuse apology from the BBC. And this at the end of a film that had taken the pi$$ out of virtually every group imagineable.

But to get back to the OP's topic. Just because Zürich is generally safe does not mean one should totally deactive one's street sense. I've been in some pretty tight corners in different bits of London and also once in West Philadelphia and once after taking a wrong turn into a side steet in New Orleans. In all these cases nothing actually happened to me but some guys obviosly thought I shouldn't be there and I obliged them by moving on. I can't say if those guys were racists or just tough guys defending their turf, and I don't really want to know. In all my years in CH I've never been in a tight corner but I have espied some unsavoury types and gone the other way to avoid them.
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  #44  
Old 01.06.2015, 12:24
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

Also because it takes effort and brain power to come up with a strong idea or powerful doctrine; much easier for those with limited originality to use an existing one, along with all the free iconography and advertising.

Only the losing ones still exist in their simplistic form - the successful ones tend to change with society too much for people of limited intelligence. Even the catholic church is changing under the current pope, whereas for example IS are trying to implement a set of laws designed for city states trading camels.

ps for the record I'm agnostic, I wouldn't give religions the attention of being atheist, but do draw a line between well-meaning if deluded organisations and those that are psychopathic.
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  #45  
Old 01.06.2015, 13:28
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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Why is it not acceptable? What if there is no such thing as racism, and it's just another manifestation of tribalism and that seems to be hard-wired into the human condition, my tribe yeh, your tribe boo! Everything else is cosmetic.
Tribalism seems to be ok for us, FC Basel against Youngboys, Apple vrs. Winddoof. Perhaps if we accept that racism exists instead of trying to ignore it we can find ways to deal with it properly.
I must be missing your underlying message here because my take away from the post is:


THIS IS TRIBALISM, NOT RACISM:





TRIBALISM IS ACCEPTABLE:


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  #46  
Old 01.06.2015, 14:29
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

I think there is a huge difference between racism on the street and soccer violence. Soccer violence is mostly not directed at innocent bystanders but against those of the other side who are clearly seeking it (as well as against the police, whose intervention is unwelcome). So you go to a game, you act in a provocative way, mock your opponents, threaten them with obscene gestures and get knocked on the head by them. You asked for it, right? Had you been a bit faster you would have knocked them on the head instead, but hard feelings don't come into it. There is a whole subculture that has developed around this with young folks seeking out the danger and confrontation. There have even been sociological studies done on it by universities.

You cannot compare this to racism against innocents.
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  #47  
Old 01.06.2015, 14:53
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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Also because it takes effort and brain power to come up with a strong idea or powerful doctrine; much easier for those with limited originality to use an existing one, along with all the free iconography and advertising.
They find it much simpler to clobber someone over the head and take something from someone than to create something of their own. Also along with it are some grievance over how their own failings were caused by some other group, instead of their own laziness and incompetence. At that primate level, color-coding is as simple as can be.



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I think there is a huge difference between racism on the street and soccer violence. Soccer violence is mostly not directed at innocent bystanders but against those of the other side who are clearly seeking it (as well as against the police, whose intervention is unwelcome). So you go to a game, you act in a provocative way, mock your opponents, threaten them with obscene gestures and get knocked on the head by them. You asked for it, right? Had you been a bit faster you would have knocked them on the head instead, but hard feelings don't come into it. There is a whole subculture that has developed around this with young folks seeking out the danger and confrontation. There have even been sociological studies done on it by universities.

You cannot compare this to racism against innocents.
Hooliganism is often just for adrenalin release. It doesn't always involve innocent bystanders, or some racist cause. Mainly only against rivals for chest beating and bragging rights. It is tribalism in a sense, for a pastime. So it was for me when I was hanging out with street gangs in my youth. One usually grows out of it. Some don't.
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  #48  
Old 01.06.2015, 20:32
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

Whatever you want to call it, it is still unpleasant to be on the receiving end.

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I said generally and mostly harmless, not always without exception. And there is a difference between xenopohobia (which Swiss mostly display) and racism.
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  #49  
Old 02.06.2015, 21:54
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

Atleast the OP can be glad that it wasnt institutional racism by the Zurich cops

Also in German
http://www.blick.ch/sport/fussball/s...id3813333.html

The reports dont mention any questioning or identity check, just being directly slammed to the ground and arrested by the police.

FC Zurich has complained, would be shocked if the complaint results in any action at all.
Edit: Would worry less violent racism from civilians in CH, when the cops will provide it as part of their job.

Last edited by Kosti; 02.06.2015 at 22:06.
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  #50  
Old 02.06.2015, 22:13
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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hi
Unfortunately experienced something very very strange at Bahnhofquai tramstop last evening.
we were a group of 4 people and a four year old , waiting for our tram, when suddenly a couple of guys sided up to us and stood within half a feet of us, staring into our faces, peering into the baby s pram, absolutely silent. When asked why, the answer was, its a free country, they could stand where they wanted. They said they were swiss and they did not understand people who spoke the rubbish english language, etc etc.
they actually followed us to the tram, then hit the closing door.
Nasty experience.

QUOTE AMOGLES
Just because Zürich is generally safe does not mean one should totally deactive one's street sense. I've been in some pretty tight corners in different bits of London and also once in West Philadelphia and once after taking a wrong turn into a side steet in New Orleans. In all these cases nothing actually happened to me but some guys obviosly thought I shouldn't be there and I obliged them by moving on. I can't say if those guys were racists or just tough guys defending their turf, and I don't really want to know. In all my years in CH I've never been in a tight corner but I have espied some unsavoury types and gone the other way to avoid them.
END QUOTE AMOGLES


@sumita
Absolutely, I wouldn’t have liked to go through that experience for one moment! I can understand that it shook you up.

I’d be interested to know why you chose to ask complete strangers WHY they were standing too close to you and staring at you in a way that made you feel uncomfortable. I don’t think I would actually want them to explain their motivation to me. Besides, asking any question at all is to invite further interaction, and therefore likely to prolong the situation and unlikely to de-escalate or end it swiftly. For myself, I’d be much more inclined to take Amogles approach… just move on, just go the other way to avoid them.

As Amogles wrote: “Just because Zürich is generally safe does not mean one should totally deactive one's street sense.” Yes, it is possible that those guys were being racist. And racism and intimidation are never okay. It is also possible that they were trying to get your attention (in which they succeeded) so as to distract you while some other crime was going on (e.g. pickpocketing you, or getting up to some other badness or nonsense inflicted on someone else standing nearby).

As others have said, being in the tram is a good place, and in Zurich City the coordination between the tram-drivers and the police is excellent. Especially good if you can sit in the front wagon, on any trams that still have two separate wagons. Or if you get in at the end, especially of a bus, walk forward inside the vehicle, to be at the front near the driver. In fact, if anything ever feels bothered by someone else on the street and there seems to be no one helping, one way to get into safety is not to wait for the tram you might have wanted to catch, but to jump onto the nearest/first tram or bus you see.
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  #51  
Old 03.06.2015, 18:15
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

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Atleast the OP can be glad that it wasnt institutional racism by the Zurich cops

Also in German
http://www.blick.ch/sport/fussball/s...id3813333.html

The reports dont mention any questioning or identity check, just being directly slammed to the ground and arrested by the police.

FC Zurich has complained, would be shocked if the complaint results in any action at all.
Edit: Would worry less violent racism from civilians in CH, when the cops will provide it as part of their job.
While it may feel good to seemingly see one's own prejudice confirmed, such articles need not be true, let alone a fair description. Yesterday tagesanzeiger.ch published an article with additional details:
Police had pictures and descriptions of pickpockets that might match Chikhaoui. He resisted, a wrangle developed, he was pressed to the floor and got handcuffed.

Keep in mind that this is a professional football player in his prime - fit, strong and with excellent reflexes. It shouldn't surprise that they had to press him to the floor.

Was it correct to check him out? No idea. But I know that a fair description of the events would have been a much tougher sell.

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As others have said, being in the tram is a good place, and in Zurich City the coordination between the tram-drivers and the police is excellent. Especially good if you can sit in the front wagon, on any trams that still have two separate wagons. Or if you get in at the end, especially of a bus, walk forward inside the vehicle, to be at the front near the driver. In fact, if anything ever feels bothered by someone else on the street and there seems to be no one helping, one way to get into safety is not to wait for the tram you might have wanted to catch, but to jump onto the nearest/first tram or bus you see.
Yup. What's more, the evildoers are essentially trapped - the driver will be likely to not open the doors until the police have arrived.
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  #52  
Old 03.07.2015, 19:36
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

Only just read this one.
Very sorry to hear about your experience.
This is one of the very reasons why I chose not to live in Zurich or a larger town/city, not that it stopped something from happening to me a couple of months back I had an appointment in Zurich, was alone walking along a quieter street and ended up later having to report a crime. It's very worrying. I was very shaken and very disappointed that this could happen in Zurich or indeed in Switzerland. These incidents just prove that Switzerland is changing and it's not what it once was.

There are young people in Zurich some on drugs, who unfortunately attack other people in an unprovoked and aggressive fashion. All crime should be reported. I didn't hesitate in reporting it. Violence was employed and more than one crime committed.

Again, sorry to hear you had to go through that.
Take care.
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  #53  
Old 03.07.2015, 19:47
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Re: Unexplainable :attempted mugging/physical intimidation at bahnhofquai tramstop

O dear , I'm really sorry to hear this!
I really hope you are ok now.Its definitely very disturbing to hear about this.
The thing is, it comes as a nasty shock when these things happen in a place which is generally labelled 'safe' .One isn't on one's guard then.
My husband works in Schaffhausen and someone just came over, gave him a nasty shove, and walked off!just like that! I guess in times like these we are glad we don't understand german, don't want to understand upsetting things!
But i guess as you said, things are changing all over the world ,and along with the positive changes, negativity,unfortunately will spread too!

Try to get the negative incident out of your mind, and lets hope these remain one off situations........take care.



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Only just read this one.
Very sorry to hear about your experience.
This is one of the very reasons why I chose not to live in Zurich or a larger town/city, not that it stopped something from happening to me a couple of months back I had an appointment in Zurich, was alone walking along a quieter street and ended up later having to report a crime. It's very worrying. I was very shaken and very disappointed that this could happen in Zurich or indeed in Switzerland. These incidents just prove that Switzerland is changing and it's not what it once was.

There are young people in Zurich some on drugs, who unfortunately attack other people in an unprovoked and aggressive fashion. All crime should be reported. I didn't hesitate in reporting it. Violence was employed and more than one crime committed.

Again, sorry to hear you had to go through that.
Take care.
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