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  #61  
Old 17.08.2015, 11:08
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

what other place in the world give you free thrash bags just because you have a baby? but then again we can also ask why baby supplies are so expensive in switzerland compared to other countries?
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Old 17.08.2015, 11:28
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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It could be argued - if you were so inclined - that the rubbish tax in Switzerland unfairly penalises the poor - as they are more likely to buy pre-packed high waste products than the rich who will have an unpackaged crate of organic, locally produced veg delivered each week - and buy their meat from the local butcher in minimal packaging.
In our town, it's CHF 250 per household per year, regardless of income level or the amount of trash, if any.

Tom
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Old 17.08.2015, 11:31
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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In our town, it's CHF 250 per household per year, regardless of income level or the amount of trash, if any.
Is that why the "poor" go and shop in Italy?
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Old 17.08.2015, 11:41
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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what other place in the world give you free thrash bags just because you have a baby? but then again we can also ask why baby supplies are so expensive in switzerland compared to other countries?
Some municipalities with the per-bag tax give parents with babies a certain quantity of the special sacks free of charge whilst the child is young enough and still in nappies, though I presume these towns are few and far between.

The question could be: what other country charges its residents massive amounts to throw away household rubbish in specially printed sacks?
(With the most complex set of system of rules and regulations in the world and then wonders why there is so much illegal dumping!)
What other country in the world thought of putting locks on dustbins. That really is the absolute limit of absurdity. I saw some dustbins recently with locks on and was astounded as such another ridiculous invention.
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Old 17.08.2015, 11:43
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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Is that why the "poor" go and shop in Italy?
Only after they've tanked up their SUV in Switzerland!

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what other country charges its residents massive amounts to throw away household rubbish in specially printed sacks?
I wouldn't know, as I've never lived anywhere that had a per-bag charge for rubbish.

Tom
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Old 17.08.2015, 11:59
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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The question could be: what other country charges its residents massive amounts to throw away household rubbish in specially printed sacks?
(With the most complex set of system of rules and regulations in the world and then wonders why there is so much illegal dumping!)
What other country in the world thought of putting locks on dustbins. That really is the absolute limit of absurdity. I saw some dustbins recently with locks on and was astounded as such another ridiculous invention.

If you say rubbish shouldn't be charged on a per bag basis then you charge a flat fee - which you have argued for Billag is an unfair method of charging.
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Old 17.08.2015, 12:09
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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Some municipalities with the per-bag tax give parents with babies a certain quantity of the special sacks free of charge whilst the child is young enough and still in nappies, though I presume these towns are few and far between.

The question could be: what other country charges its residents massive amounts to throw away household rubbish in specially printed sacks?
(With the most complex set of system of rules and regulations in the world and then wonders why there is so much illegal dumping!)
What other country in the world thought of putting locks on dustbins. That really is the absolute limit of absurdity. I saw some dustbins recently with locks on and was astounded as such another ridiculous invention.
Belgium for one and France ( at least in some areas) for another. I'm sure they're not the only ones.
At least with the pay per bag or per weight system you only pay for the rubbish you generate, with the annual flat fee you have to pay whether you have any rubbish or not.
Same with Billag really, if you use the service (TV or radio) you pay but there is an opt out option for those who don't use it.
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  #68  
Old 17.08.2015, 12:18
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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Some municipalities with the per-bag tax give parents with babies a certain quantity of the special sacks free of charge whilst the child is young enough and still in nappies, though I presume these towns are few and far between.

The question could be: what other country charges its residents massive amounts to throw away household rubbish in specially printed sacks?
(With the most complex set of system of rules and regulations in the world and then wonders why there is so much illegal dumping!)
What other country in the world thought of putting locks on dustbins. That really is the absolute limit of absurdity. I saw some dustbins recently with locks on and was astounded as such another ridiculous invention.
If you had to pay for getting rid of other people's rubbish- that they put in YOUR bin- and cost you a bomb- I'm pretty sure you'd put a lock on it. Restaurants and businesses pay by weight or full bin, and are pretty sick of others avoiding paying for their own by putting it in theirs. I understand why they get fed up and take measures to avoid it.

There is a good reason why Switzerland has a very high rate of recycling and is so clean- my 2 recent visits to Sicily made me truly appreciate that. And yes, charging does change behaviour- anyone can choose to buy with less packaging, or leave the packaging at the supermarket, etc- not just the rich, honestly.

And in my area, where people have to pay by weight to dispose of their rubbish (rather than official bags) it certainly concentrates the mind. A large % of parents have changed to shapped washable nappies with a liner for solids- saving vast amounts of money in the process. Brilliant. As said before, if I was younger and lived in a large town- I would talk to the Council to get a loan and facilities to start a collect/delivery/wash system for washable nappies- in the town where I lived in the UK there were two, that were very profitable. All you'd need is a van, 1 industrial washer and 1 dryer to begin with - not so easy in my area as we have 11 villages spread over quite a large area- but in a town where many live in flats with shared washing facilities, perfect.
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  #69  
Old 17.08.2015, 12:31
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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I wouldn't know, as I've never lived anywhere that had a per-bag charge for rubbish.
I lived in a town in Ticino for 4 years and for the first three years was utilizing ordinary bags for my trash as I genuinely didn't know that one had to buy the official ones, I hadn't even heard about them, didn't know what they were or that they existed. Proving you can easily live in a town where they have such a system and yet still use ordinary bags since they simply empty the big wheelie bins without checking what's inside. As for the argument, yes but then they go through your rubbish to see who you are and fine you. How would they know? Paper with names and address on would have been recycled separately with the paper as it was a town which fortunately collected paper.
Having seen that for 3 years I had not bought them and there had been no problem with that, I wasn't about to start buying them in the final year I lived in that town! I then moved into a town which didn't have the per-bag system and could totally relax and not worry about recycling etc. at all - which is how things should be!

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If you say rubbish shouldn't be charged on a per bag basis then you charge a flat fee - which you have argued for Billag is an unfair method of charging.
No, for rubbish, there should be absolutely no separate tax at all, it is a mere invention as a tax to take more money away from residents. Rubbish collection can be paid for out of ordinary taxes which municipalities already charge residents for the privilege of earning money whilst living there.
If they really and absolutely want to charge for rubbish collection separately, it should also be based upon income. However I am firmly against any charge!

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Belgium for one and France ( at least in some areas) for another. I'm sure they're not the only ones.
At least with the pay per bag or per weight system you only pay for the rubbish you generate, with the annual flat fee you have to pay whether you have any rubbish or not.
I am not arguing for a annual/flat fee at all! There shouldn't be a fee. It is unnecessary. It should be paid for and included in ordinary taxes!
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Same with Billag really, if you use the service (TV or radio) you pay but there is an opt out option for those who don't use it.
No there is no opt-out fee if you don't use it! That is the point. You have to pay for it even if you do not utilize the services that Billag actually pays for. I have a PC, a radio, 2 TV sets, but I do not utilize Billag-financed services. According to Billag rules I still should pay it unless I am exempt for a totally separate reason. The Billag charge is thus ludicrous, unfair and wrong - hence me not paying and not having ever paid it!

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If you had to pay for getting rid of other people's rubbish- that they put in YOUR bin- and cost you a bomb- I'm pretty sure you'd put a lock on it. Restaurants and businesses pay by weight or full bin, and are pretty sick of others avoiding paying for their own by putting it in theirs. I understand why they get fed up and take measures to avoid it.
How is putting a lock on a dustbin taking measures?
A lock on a dustbin serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. It avoids nothing. If someone wants to dump an untaxed sack of rubbish, they are not going to worry about there being a lock on the bin, they are going to dump the sack on the dustbin lid or lean it up against the bin! It will still be collected as the rubbish inside will be! The municipal refuse services have an obligation to take the rubbish away apparently whether it is in a taxed sack or not. Otherwise how was it I was able to live 4 years in a town with the tax-per-sack refuse system, yet without ever purchasing a taxed rubbish sack?
The lock on the dustbin I saw recently must be the most utterly pathetic, redundant and absurd Swiss invention I have ever come across to date and is completely laughable.

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Old 17.08.2015, 16:03
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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The Billag charge is thus ludicrous, unfair and wrong - hence me not paying and not having ever paid it!
That doesn't apply to the waste bags, and yet you kept freeloading.

For some aspects you find a loophole, for others you don't. Which of the two doesn't matter though, you keep cheating and deceiving anyway.

You're just a despicable freeloader who even has the nerve to constantly whinge. I wish you left day before yesterday.
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Old 17.08.2015, 16:14
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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No, for rubbish, there should be absolutely no separate tax at all, it is a mere invention as a tax to take more money away from residents. Rubbish collection can be paid for out of ordinary taxes which municipalities already charge residents for the privilege of earning money whilst living there.
If they really and absolutely want to charge for rubbish collection separately, it should also be based upon income. However I am firmly against any charge!

Well this is where we totally disagree. How will you encourage people to avoid waste and recycle, if they end up paying as much as those who don't. The principle of 'polluter pays for clean up' makes total sense to me, and to most of the people I know.


I am not arguing for a annual/flat fee at all! There shouldn't be a fee. It is unnecessary. It should be paid for and included in ordinary taxes!

Why should I pay tax to clear the rubbish you produce and your lack of effort? Since the new system came in, we pay an awful lot let than we used to before. Good- I feel rewarded for a/avoiding waste b/ recycling and composting.

How is putting a lock on a dustbin taking measures?
A lock on a dustbin serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. It avoids nothing. If someone wants to dump an untaxed sack of rubbish, they are not going to worry about there being a lock on the bin, they are going to dump the sack on the dustbin lid or lean it up against the bin! It will still be collected as the rubbish inside will be! The municipal refuse services have an obligation to take the rubbish away apparently whether it is in a taxed sack or not. Otherwise how was it I was able to live 4 years in a town with the tax-per-sack refuse system, yet without ever purchasing a taxed rubbish sack?
The lock on the dustbin I saw recently must be the most utterly pathetic, redundant and absurd Swiss invention I have ever come across to date and is completely laughable.
It makes total sense for the business that owns the bin and pays for its contents to be disposed off- either per bin or by weight? If the rubbish is not IN the bin, they won't pay for it. I have a friend who has a restaurant nearby- since he put a lock on the bin, his refuse collection bill has dropped by over 50%. Can't say I blame him for putting that lock on.

You are entitled to complain as much as you like, but at the end of the day, if so many things are so bad and so stupid here- maybe it is not for you. As said, if you want your rubbish collection Naples or Sicilian style (using those as examples as I've seen it for myself recently) then ...


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Old 17.08.2015, 16:18
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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No, for rubbish, there should be absolutely no separate tax at all, it is a mere invention as a tax to take more money away from residents. Rubbish collection can be paid for out of ordinary taxes which municipalities already charge residents for the privilege of earning money whilst living there.
If they really and absolutely want to charge for rubbish collection separately, it should also be based upon income. However I am firmly against any charge!

The removal of rubbish is not "free", as with everything in life there is a cost. The question is who carries the cost - is it equally carried by all members of a group or by those who use the service most often?


In the case of rubbish there will be an element paid for by the community taxes - Recycling centres, recycling collections, organisation and collection of rubbish - and element paid for by the user (per bag cost) which is a charge levied on the disposal of the rubbish.


The same is true of many things in life - there is a fixed cost for a vehicle to be used on the motorway, a minor variable cost for using a vehicle (road tax) and a major variable cost (fuel tax). Finding the balance point between what you charge each member of a group for a service irrespective of use and a usage charge is always going to be a challenge - and you'll always end up with winners and losers.


Typically you would move towards usage charges when you are trying to reduce consumption - and a per person charge when you are trying to increase consumption.


The other good example is that of the SBB. The SBB requires public support with taxpayers making a sizeable contribution to ensure the countries public transport infrastructure runs on time and is priced fairly for the population as a whole. The end result means that someone on a low income with a GA will be contributing the bare minimum to the actual cost of their journey compared to that of a high earning banker who rarely uses public transport.
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  #73  
Old 17.08.2015, 19:19
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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The bin owner/renter holder is responsible for its contents, probably gets charged for any black bags therein. He's not responsible for anything outside the bin.
Got it now? Feel free to keep whingeing though.
I am not complaining, more just stating the facts.
The untaxed bags dumped outside of the bin are still going to be collected. The contents of wheelie bins are rarely checked, so the lock changes nothing, as the owners of the bin could still place untaxed sacks inside as well as outside and have them collected.

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That doesn't apply to the waste bags, and yet you kept freeloading.
I don't understand what you mean.
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For some aspects you find a loophole, for others you don't. Which of the two doesn't matter though, you keep cheating and deceiving anyway.
Not paying Billag is hardly cheating or deceiving. If I don't utilize Billag services I shouldn't have to pay for them and so I haven't/don't.
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You're just a despicable freeloader who even has the nerve to constantly whinge.
This is your opinion, but it is in total contrast to reality.
Moreover, I am not constantly complaining, but merely pointing out fact.
There is no absolutely no call to be rude. If you can't remain civil, you shouldn't write.
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I wish you left day before yesterday.
Left what? Left for where?

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It makes total sense for the business that owns the bin and pays for its contents to be disposed off- either per bin or by weight? If the rubbish is not IN the bin, they won't pay for it. I have a friend who has a restaurant nearby- since he put a lock on the bin, his refuse collection bill has dropped by over 50%. Can't say I blame him for putting that lock on.
The contents of bins though (as well as what is next to the bin) are collected whether in taxed sacks or untaxed as the refuse collectors simply tip the contents of the wheelie bins into the lorry. Checks are time-consuming, resource-robbing and essentially very costly, thus they are rare and totally at random, fines are given only if something inside an untaxed bag can be firmly linked to the resident/person who dumped it, which is again improbable. Putting locks on dustbins does not solve the problem of illegal disposal of rubbish in any way, on the contrary, it makes the dumping look even more unsightly, by shifting more and more rubbish onto the pavement!

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You are entitled to complain as much as you like, but at the end of the day, if so many things are so bad and so stupid here maybe it is not for you. As said, if you want your rubbish collection Naples or Sicilian style (using those as examples as I've seen it for myself recently) then...
As mentioned, I am only presenting the facts, I am not complaining about everything! My opinion is also that things can be done better to protect vulnerable members of society as well as those on a low income.

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The removal of rubbish is not "free", as with everything in life there is a cost. The question is who carries the cost
Of course the removal/disposal is not free, but it is a municipal service that was always, until the introduction of the taxed sacks, included in local taxes, in some municipalities (although they are becoming fewer all the time) there is still no separate charge for rubbish collection.
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Typically you would move towards usage charges when you are trying to reduce consumption..
But you can only reduce the amount of rubbish by so much. At a certain point this is going to level off and maybe with population growth being what it is, increase! The recycling rate is high in Switzerland for various materials. Many people are now used to recycling and do it properly. Others don't. If the rubbish collection tax was incorporated back into municipal taxes, and linked to income, it would be fair and I don't think recycling rates would significantly drop.
The fact also remains that illegal dumping will continue to be rife in areas where there continues to be a per-sack tax for refuse.
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  #74  
Old 17.08.2015, 19:45
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

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I lived in a town in Ticino for 4 years and for the first three years was utilizing ordinary bags for my trash as I genuinely didn't know that one had to buy the official ones, I hadn't even heard about them, didn't know what they were or that they existed. Proving you can easily live in a town where they have such a system and yet still use ordinary bags since they simply empty the big wheelie bins without checking what's inside. As for the argument, yes but then they go through your rubbish to see who you are and fine you. How would they know? Paper with names and address on would have been recycled separately with the paper as it was a town which fortunately collected paper.

Has anybody told you that you need to buy toilet paper ?
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Old 17.08.2015, 19:48
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Has anybody told you that you need to buy toilet paper ?
I don't understand the meaning/purpose of this post. What does it have to do with the discussion?
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Old 17.08.2015, 19:53
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I don't understand the meaning/purpose of this post. What does it have to do with the discussion?
Let me explain.

You said nobody told you about buying rubbish bags, a fact even us ignorant long nose foreigners know about, so i was just checking somebody told you to buy toilet paper as their is enough smell emanating without you adding to it through ignorance.
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Old 17.08.2015, 19:59
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Let me explain.

You said nobody told you about buying rubbish bags, a fact even us ignorant long nose foreigners know about, so i was just checking somebody told you to buy toilet paper as their is enough smell emanating without you adding to it through ignorance.
Still unclear.
How would I know about the special rubbish sacks if nobody told me when I arrived? They don't exist elsewhere, or at least they didn't then where I have lived previously. They still don't exist in all towns nationwide in Switzerland!
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Old 17.08.2015, 22:21
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

A start would be to Google for "abfallentsorgung" and the name of the place you live.

For example "abfallentsorgung" and "aargau":

https://www.ag.ch/de/bvu/umwelt_natu...tsorgung_2.jsp

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Still unclear.
How would I know about the special rubbish sacks if nobody told me when I arrived? They don't exist elsewhere, or at least they didn't then where I have lived previously. They still don't exist in all towns nationwide in Switzerland!
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Old 17.08.2015, 22:27
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A start would be to Google for "abfallentsorgung" and the name of the place you live. For example "abfallentsorgung" and "aargau https://www.ag.ch/de/bvu/umwelt_natu...tsorgung_2.jsp
Thank you for your kind thought, however the events described occurred in Ticino in the late 90s! When I arrived (t)here, having lived previously in countries where such bizarre things don't exist, I was not informed about it/was not told and so was totally unaware.
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Old 17.08.2015, 22:34
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Re: Billag ? need advice please

When we arrived in Basel in 2001 we got the waste disposal schedule given to is at the immigration office when we got our B permits. Otherwise you ask a colleague, look it up in the phone book, etc etc.
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