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  #41  
Old 27.09.2015, 13:21
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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I think they haven't introduced the right kind of symbol for that specific case yet

Anyways, to be fair - there are people with limitations we do not see who might not wish to share with a complete stranger and a bus full of people. There are kids who look older but are not and yes, for whatever reasons people use a buggy for them while we might not. There are people who look pregnant and aren't, there are chicks who can be 6mo pregnant, might not look it to some and are too polite to ask for a seat. What is common sense for one, and being mindful and helpful, is not a priority for others, obviously. Things change with exposure, I think it will be different say in 10 years. In the meantime, let's keep being kind? Even if our effort is hit and miss, and we might offend by offering unsolicited help. I think young unaccompanied moms do not get much attention nor often feel like asking.
Seconded.

Common courtesy on public transport

Quote from my first post in the linked thread:

"I went on my way wondering, why do some people think that common courtesy only applies when there is a visible physical impairment (which includes crutches or a wheelchair)?"

As soon as one loses their crutches, they are deemed "able to walk, stand on a shaking bus, run etc." As soon as a child looks older than 18 months, they are deemed able to walk rather than crawl. As soon as a lady doesn't have a visible obvious pregnant stomach she is deemed able to manage without sitting.

People should stop relying on their eyes and a "the world only functions in one specific way and any deviation isn't real" this much and rather be a bit more considerate.

A week ago I saw a young lady get on a bus with a very large bag. I was outside as I didn't need to take the bus. There were some empty seats far away from the lady, and no one bothered to get up to let her sit down even though she was wobbling at the knees.
No one budged - until her legs gave out and she ended up on the floor amid her purchases. Then the two people closest to her - who were standing (a guy and a lady) helped her up and guided her to the rail for wheelchairs which she held onto for the ride. But no one got up and offered her a seat.
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  #42  
Old 27.09.2015, 14:16
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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at the risk of the inevitable groans, and being a father of 3 children and having a dog as a faithful companion...

...a 3 year old child is not disabled, and the pushchair is strictly for the convenience of the child and/or the parent. the minute our children were too big or heavy to carry, they walked the same as us. why should a convenience item take precedence over any other user of public transport?

It used to be that if a pushchair was taken onto a bus or tram without being folded you had to buy an extra ticket for it, presumably because it was taking up the floor space of an adult. Same with a dog...... not sure when that stopped being the case but it might help if it was re-introduced.
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  #43  
Old 27.09.2015, 16:09
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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It used to be that if a pushchair was taken onto a bus or tram without being folded you had to buy an extra ticket for it, presumably because it was taking up the floor space of an adult. Same with a dog...... not sure when that stopped being the case but it might help if it was re-introduced.
In the case of the dog, it is still the same ruling now, in a slightly adapted form! You don't actually have to fold your dog... if it is under a certain size and you carry it in a bag, it is free. Otherwise, half-price ticket.
SBB: Dogs of any size travelling in passenger carriages or luggage vans must always pay second-class half fare or the stipulated minimum fare (1-day travelpass for dogs, GA travelcard for dogs) if there is one.
Exception: small dogs up to 30 cm high at the top of their shoulder blades can travel with you free of charge as carriage hand luggage provided they are in a carrier, basket or other suitable container

I agree that it is so very annoying when the place for prams is blocked by folk without one when there is room elsewhere. The same sort of thing happens to us cyclists in trains - and we have even bought a bike-ticket (a 1/2 price ticket) for the privilege of being moaned at.
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On some trains there are two hooks per carriage to hang up bikes. You can see if they are empty as the train comes into the station... AFTER you have manoevered the bikes into the carriage through the narrow doorway and up the steep steps, you may find that the area below the empty hooks is blocked by prams, luggage or people. And as you can no longer get out again and find hooks in another carriage without running a high risk of the train going off without you, you are stuck diagonally in the middle of nowhere and EVERYONE trying to get in or out afterwards will moan about you until you reach your destination... It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you are actually in the right and the folk blocking your 'bike' spot are the ones who are in the wrong.
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  #44  
Old 27.09.2015, 17:56
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

It all changed with the many foreigners that are now in Switzerland. Before that it was like this:

Grüezi.
Grüezi.
Tschuldigung.
Häee?
Händs eigentli Tomate uff dä Auge? Gsehnt Si nöd das i än Böggy mit eme Bébé han und Sie dä Platz versperret? Chönntet Sie also bitte Ihres verdammte Füdli vo dem Platz weg lüpfe?
Ja, 'tschuldigung.
Keis Problem.
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  #45  
Old 27.09.2015, 23:59
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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at the risk of the inevitable groans, and being a father of 3 children and having a dog as a faithful companion...

...a 3 year old child is not disabled, and the pushchair is strictly for the convenience of the child and/or the parent. the minute our children were too big or heavy to carry, they walked the same as us. why should a convenience item take precedence over any other user of public transport?



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  #46  
Old 28.09.2015, 00:13
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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at the risk of the inevitable groans, and being a father of 3 children and having a dog as a faithful companion...

...a 3 year old child is not disabled, and the pushchair is strictly for the convenience of the child and/or the parent. the minute our children were too big or heavy to carry, they walked the same as us. why should a convenience item take precedence over any other user of public transport?



I would agree with you, but at present my daughter is 20 months, and a short house like her mum. Her little legs can't quite make it up the big steps... and she's already carrying two bags of shopping so I feel a bit mean not letting her ride in the pushchair...


The three year old I mentioned wasn't mine but another lady's. She had two walking kids and an infant in a pushchair. Those kids weren't on seats - one was standing, the smaller one relegated to the steps between carriages.
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  #47  
Old 28.09.2015, 00:19
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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There is one guy that frequents the 36 bus on a morning. I'm assuming he is Swiss, based on the fact he is wearing FC Basel Socks, FC Basel tie clip and a FC Basel belt buckle ... all very nice!

Anyway, this gentleman sometimes gets boxed by the crowds and when it's his turn to get off, he barges his way out using shoulders and elbows ... very rude.

Only last week he was on a virtual empty bus, but decided to stand in front of the fold-down chair. So I simply parked the buggy near him and stepped into the space, so as not to block the passage way. This was obviously too much for him, as he pushed me out of the way and went and sat down ... what an ****!






A couple of weeks ago I had a heated debate with a guy, whose partner was sitting on the fold down seat, even though there was plenty of space on the bus. When I asked if she would kindly vacate the seat, so that I could sit near my son, she started to get up, but he told her to stay put ... speechless!

I did finish the "discussion" by asking which category they fell into, while pointing to the wheelchair and pushchair symbols.


I would have been spitting bricks...! Mind you - it seems like rudeness in general is accepted here. Two kids squeezed past my other half in the supermarket the other day (they nearly got themselves smushed by the trolley for their trouble too - entirely accidentally, it was a momentum thing); and at a play area today, instead of a woman saying "Excuse me" when I was in her way I had my foot run over by her pushchair. No excuse me, sorry, thank you, kiss mine or anything. Extraordinary.


I appear to have gone off the path but it's all connected in my head...
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Old 28.09.2015, 00:24
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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It all changed with the many foreigners that are now in Switzerland. Before that it was like this:

Grüezi.
Grüezi.
Tschuldigung.
Häee?
Händs eigentli Tomate uff dä Auge? Gsehnt Si nöd das i än Böggy mit eme Bébé han und Sie dä Platz versperret? Chönntet Sie also bitte Ihres verdammte Füdli vo dem Platz weg lüpfe?
Ja, 'tschuldigung.
Keis Problem.
Not in my neck of the woods it wasn't..... please translate for the french/italian speakers.
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  #49  
Old 28.09.2015, 00:28
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

"Idiot" is understood in English, German and Swiss German.
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Old 28.09.2015, 00:37
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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Not in my neck of the woods it wasn't..... please translate for the french/italian speakers.
No French speaker or Italian speaker in Switzerland was ever as rude as the dialog featured above. Translating would be science-fiction.
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  #51  
Old 28.09.2015, 01:19
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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It all changed with the many foreigners that are now in Switzerland. Before that it was like this:

Grüezi.
Grüezi.
Tschuldigung.
Häee?
Händs eigentli Tomate uff dä Auge? Gsehnt Si nöd das i än Böggy mit eme Bébé han und Sie dä Platz versperret? Chönntet Sie also bitte Ihres verdammte Füdli vo dem Platz weg lüpfe?
Ja, 'tschuldigung.
Keis Problem.
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"Idiot" is understood in English, German and Swiss German.
As an english and French speaker I don't see the word 'idiot' anywhere within aSwissintheUS's text....
I hope you're not calling me an idiot, I'd thought you above such things.
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  #52  
Old 28.09.2015, 01:38
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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I would agree with you, but at present my daughter is 20 months, and a short house like her mum. Her little legs can't quite make it up the big steps... and she's already carrying two bags of shopping so I feel a bit mean not letting her ride in the pushchair...


The three year old I mentioned wasn't mine but another lady's. She had two walking kids and an infant in a pushchair. Those kids weren't on seats - one was standing, the smaller one relegated to the steps between carriages.
best thing to do is get one of those dog crates and lock the baby in that so that it can't get up to any mischief. then leave the crate at home while you go out shopping.

no need to inconvenience yourself or anyone else with a buggy. just do your shopping like everyone else, come home, uncrate and you're golden!
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Old 28.09.2015, 07:38
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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As an english and French speaker I don't see the word 'idiot' anywhere within aSwissintheUS's text....
I hope you're not calling me an idiot, I'd thought you above such things.
I interpreted her post as giving helpful advice to those not fluent but in such a situation; not as anything to do with your post (note the lack of reference to French and Italian).
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Old 28.09.2015, 09:39
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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I clearly need to learn both the Hoch - and Swiss Deutsch for "Yes, it is. Now, back off, lady. I'm quite prepared to go over or through you... You decide."
Grr.
Anjela, my post was inspired by the OP's introduction. Nothing to do with you at all.
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Old 28.09.2015, 09:52
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

To the OP, learning the local language & culture should be every new resident's primary mission

As to blame, rudeness exists everywhere and because there's such a mix of backgrounds here you're not the only one to fail to adapt to the language & culture en Suisse.
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  #56  
Old 28.09.2015, 10:13
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

I expeienced this at the weekend when i was on the tram with my one year old (Hes to small to walk, i need the buggy)
There were alot of people on the carriage with us, all able bodied young people. When a second buggy came on board i was the only person to try make room for this woman and her buggy.

If a tram is busy then OK, we all have to make do but if its quiet (like the one i was on), bugger off up stairs and sit somewhere else
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Old 28.09.2015, 10:18
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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Grüezi.
Grüezi.
Tschuldigung.
Häee?
Händs eigentli Tomate uff dä Auge? Gsehnt Si nöd das i än Böggy mit eme Bébé han und Sie dä Platz versperret? Chönntet Sie also bitte Ihres verdammte Füdli vo dem Platz weg lüpfe?
Ja, 'tschuldigung.
Keis Problem.
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Not in my neck of the woods it wasn't..... please translate for the french/italian speakers.
'Ow do.
'Ow do.
Gerrout o' t'road.
Eh?
Hastha tomatas on thy eyes? Can tha not see av gorra pram wi' a bairn in it and tha's blocking t'oil? So please can tha shift yer bloody feet out o' t' way!
Aye, sorry.
Not a problem, mate. [Think on next time.]


HTH
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Old 28.09.2015, 10:56
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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best thing to do is get one of those dog crates and lock the baby in that so that it can't get up to any mischief. then leave the crate at home while you go out shopping.

no need to inconvenience yourself or anyone else with a buggy. just do your shopping like everyone else, come home, uncrate and you're golden!




Hmm.. that's legal here? I know lots of things are different in Switzerland, but... probably easier than finding a Spielgruppe or Tagesheim for her too...


Ta.


And no, before I get groaned at. I'm not serious. Any more than Phil_MCR was... maybe...
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Old 28.09.2015, 11:03
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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To the OP, learning the local language & culture should be every new resident's primary mission

As to blame, rudeness exists everywhere and because there's such a mix of backgrounds here you're not the only one to fail to adapt to the language & culture en Suisse.


Oh, I'm learning lots about the culture here, believe me! I'm mainly learning that because it's basically 1954-ish here with regards to childcare, and children needing to be seen and not heard, I must take my daughter everywhere with me. Preferably in a gag.


I am DESPERATE to learn more German - my A level is very rusty - however until Friday I had only encountered one learning establishment that didn't baulk at my taking my child with me - mainly because they also gleefully practice daylight robbery in terms of fees and then the childcare on top. Ouchy.


I have since found another.


Yes, sadly rudeness seems to be a pandemic. That doesn't mean I have to either like or accept it. I'm not going to lower my standards - or model poor behaviour for my child. They're sponges, adept at picking up and mimicking practically everything we do.


Someone very erudite (or Jon Bon Jovi, I forget) once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." I concur.

Last edited by RufusB; 28.09.2015 at 11:08. Reason: I can't spell "concur" on the first go...
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Old 28.09.2015, 11:08
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Re: Breathtaking rudeness, nay bullheadedness on the tram...

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Yes, sadly rudeness seems to be a pandemic. That doesn't mean I have to either like or accept it.
Quite right too.
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