Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 23.10.2015, 22:35
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: GL
Posts: 15,391
Groaned at 969 Times in 737 Posts
Thanked 38,686 Times in 12,106 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
In Israel? The land of Milk and Honey?
Yeah, why not?
  #62  
Old 24.10.2015, 01:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,054
Groaned at 99 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,793 Times in 1,958 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
They make up 17% of the population, so I guess so.
How does that mean anything? An awful many will stay even if not welcome. Actually, the vast majority is likely to not have an alternative.

Oh I forgot. The Palestinians. Yes, they are definitely welcome. I mean how could they not feel welcome when killed by the thousands.
The following 3 users groan at Urs Max for this post:
  #63  
Old 24.10.2015, 02:32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
Quote:
View Post
If true, it would quite pathetic if they would only draw on such posters as their source of identity. It would also indicate such posters hits some nerve of truth they do not come to terms with. Just about every group in the world is insulted in one way or another. If everybody behaved like eggshells, we would be in a lot more trouble. Seriously, they do have a stronger sense of identity than those posters, and you know that.

I don't think the SVP is the problem here. I think such Muslim women, if they are truly devastated by this as you claim, really should harden up a bit or get a sense of humour.
So, now it's the Muslim women's fault that SVP posters depicting a powerless female minority as demons of Swiss society is upsetting?

The answer to "consistently denigrating an ethnic gender" isn't "they should learn to live with it and get thicker skin".

The answer is "let's have a boundary of how we treat other humans and discuss political views without ostracizing an already very oppressed group of people".

All this above is very easy for people to say who have been raised with lots of advantages which gives them strength and are not on the bottom of the pile. Growing up or consistently living in a society over a long period of time where your minority heritage is consistently portrayed as the pariah of the community just plain sucks and isn't enjoyable.

Quote:
View Post
I'm sorry to break this to you, but you're not in Kansas any more. You're not even in the US or in Canada. You're in Switzerland. People here are have a different history and different things offend them. You need to see things in their own context and not in your context.
Isn't "avoid denigrating and ostracizing badly oppressed females" a basic human value that span all countries around the globe?

I thought Geneva, Switzerland is the world's capital of agreeing commonly held human rights values.

Quote:
View Post
then is that not a reason to change and try to fit in? Why choose to remain "alien" looking? Dress like the majority of "normal citizens" and you may feel better about yourself?
There are plenty of women of muslim heritage who have fully grown up in CH, completely integrated (you wouldn't know they have a muslim background), who dress as "normal citizens" in corporate suits etc, do not wear headscarves, who are strong, confident, thick-skinned but still look at those posters and think "uggh, they're talking about women of my tradition, there's a little of me in that poster".

Quote:
View Post
If everybody behaved like eggshells, we would be in a lot more trouble.
Saying "please don't put posters up all around my neighborhood depicting people like me as ominous villains and the scourge of my community" isn't asking you to walk on eggshells.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 24.10.2015 at 12:43. Reason: merging consecutive replies; try the multi-quote button (to the right of Quote). ;)
This user would like to thank makeabigwish for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at makeabigwish for this post:
  #64  
Old 24.10.2015, 08:33
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,989
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,272 Times in 5,015 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
Isn't "avoid denigrating and ostracizing badly oppressed females" a basic human value that span all countries around the globe?
Self evidently this isn't the case. otherwise there wouldn't be any "badly oppressed females".
  #65  
Old 24.10.2015, 09:03
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zug, CH
Posts: 2,839
Groaned at 155 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 5,382 Times in 1,839 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
What I find disturbing is that in the US, if the republicans or democrats put up posters in the upcoming elections depicting a group of a particular background in a dark ominous way, it would be considered political suicide, there would be a huge uproar, outcry, people in the streets ....

.... I realize I am on very dangerous ground here, because the US has had and still have had huge problems with treatment of minorities .....

Nonetheless, I don't think the major parties would decide to produce posters depicting muslim women in dark red and black and I believe they would really suffer if they did or at minimum suffer more than the SVP seems to from this type of behavior.

However, it does not seem that there is very strong negative consequences for the SVP in demonizing segments of the population.

.... once again, I am not holding up the US as a paragon of virtue on this topic .... I am just saying that this would be quickly dismissed as an absolute no-go in other countries, such as the US or Canada, whereas currently this type of political behavior seems more stomached here with less consequences.
I know Tom already hit this one, but it's just such a huge pile of fail that it deserves to be called out again. Do you have a TV or read newspapers? Have you seen anything at all about the (general) Republican stance on immigration???
The following 2 users would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 24.10.2015, 13:46
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
So, now it's the Muslim women's fault that SVP posters depicting a powerless female minority as demons of Swiss society is upsetting?

The answer to "consistently denigrating an ethnic gender" isn't "they should learn to live with it and get thicker skin".

The answer is "let's have a boundary of how we treat other humans and discuss political views without ostracizing an already very oppressed group of people".
...
Saying "please don't put posters up all around my neighborhood depicting people like me as ominous villains and the scourge of my community" isn't asking you to walk on eggshells.
Can you explain how they are denigrated, because I only see an image of a woman in a burka, and associating it with political Islam, which afterall points out the truth that the burka is a statement of political Islam or Islamism. Is that not true? That is what is said by Muslims about the burka.

I believe the use of the burka image is politically calculated and targetted. These are normally used for referendum campaigns, and probably for SVP branding. The SVP uses it to reach a demographic which they unexpectedly stumbled upon - women. They found that women respond to this issue - particularly the human rights of women is such cultures. European women find the treatment of women in Muslim cultures somewhat oppressive. The major sentiment is that it is not something they want to see here in their future here, nor for their children. This sentiment sometimes sway women's votes towards the SVP.

I think in their mind, they are actually trying to good for such women. But inter-cultural misunderstandings, as you probably know, gets very stupid, clumsy and ignorant. Approaches on how to handle these vary, and there is very little agreement on perspectives.

So, I do like the idea of asking. I think that is how civilized should work. Have you tried asking? Have you tried sending a letter to the SVP? Honestly though, was this thread an attempt at asking and discussing this, or was it really an attempt at demonizing the SVP? The impression I get is that you really just wanted to vent about the SVP.
__________________
exceptio probat regulam
The following 3 users would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 25.10.2015, 21:05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
This thread isn't about the burka issue.

The point of this thread isn't about any single SVP campaign or the pros/cons of any particular issue.


I can actually appreciate and even partially agree with where the SVP might be coming from on a number of topics they raise.


I am even sympathetic to how many Swiss want to curtail immigration and want to hold on to some of the Swiss values that makes this a great country to live in.

I'm not actually even for very extreme political correctness.

The point is about a pattern of demonizing a segment of the population.

Over time now, crossing several different campaigns, a pattern is starting to develop. It is the image of an ominous villainous muslim woman in foreboding black and red.

I am not an SVP-poster expert, but I can think of four different posters on different topics at different times over the past few years that were plastered over Switzerland with a muslim woman depicted as an evil looking threat and these are the only images of muslim women that they depict.


It's not good for any of us.

I'm not actually picking just on the SVP. We're all in this together.


If a major political party can single out a segment of the population and consciously spend a decent marketing campaign to design, print, distribute images of an ethnic gender as ominous and foreboding, and there are no consequences in voting behavior .... and the rest of the population seems to stomach this .... what does this tell us?

One thing it could say is that we live in a community, where someday there might be something about you that is a part of your background and who you are. But you might have to hide that side of you away because it is acceptable in this community to single out an ethnicity or difference and demonize them.

Someday it could be something shaming about you.

You didn't do anything wrong and it's probably something you don't really have that much control over.

Or perhaps you are a kid growing up in a neighborhood that has posters up demonizing your heritage and now you grow up never really feeling proud of your background (that you can't do much about). This is your home for the rest of your life. Now you have to live daily knowing you live in a community where you've been given the message that a big part of the population sees you as a villain and the other part of the population doesn't seem to care much that you've been depicted as an outsider and a villain.

Sucks.

If they'll do it with you .... it's possible someday they'll do it to you ... and to your kids.

We're all better than this.

It is possible for us to discuss political issues and get votes while keeping certain human values ... such as not singling out and ostracizing a segment of our population.

Quote:
View Post
Can you explain how they are denigrated, because I only see an image of a woman in a burka, and associating it with political Islam, which afterall points out the truth that the burka is a statement of political Islam or Islamism. Is that not true? That is what is said by Muslims about the burka.

I believe the use of the burka image is politically calculated and targetted. These are normally used for referendum campaigns, and probably for SVP branding. The SVP uses it to reach a demographic which they unexpectedly stumbled upon - women. They found that women respond to this issue - particularly the human rights of women is such cultures. European women find the treatment of women in Muslim cultures somewhat oppressive. The major sentiment is that it is not something they want to see here in their future here, nor for their children. This sentiment sometimes sway women's votes towards the SVP.

I think in their mind, they are actually trying to good for such women.
I am sure there are women and men in CH, and even members of SVP, who care about other women in the world enough to express an opinion on Burkas.

At the same time, look at the poster.

It doesn't present an uplifting, inspiring image saying "hurrah, let's liberate these wonderful women from their burka's and help them become beautiful, fully contributing Swiss citizens".

Add to that the track record of the last 3-4 posters, using the same image, on a variety of other issues depicting muslim women in a negative way.

Both the current, and all the previous looks more like "beware, our society is under threat by this ominous dark villain".

Perhaps with the current campaign the SVP believes in "inclusivity", really cares for muslim women and wants to help them contribute to a great Swiss future.

It seems to me from the consistency of images that it's more likely that they are just dreaming up and reaching for another topic where they can produce scary images of us under threat by these foreboding creatures.

Quote:
View Post
Do you have a TV or read newspapers? Have you seen anything at all about the (general) Republican stance on immigration???
Yes, as I said earlier, I realize my US/Canada statement is on dangerous ground.

I'm not saying rah-rah Democrat, Republican, or even USA/Canada.

There are and have been horrible racial problems.

I'm just saying that it says something that at the very minimum, it is for the most part considered a complete non-starter for a major political party in many other western countries around the world to spend buckets of money on posters depicting a racial group as evil in dark black and red as a menace to society and that there would be negative political consequences for doing so.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 25.10.2015 at 21:56. Reason: merging consecutive replies; try the multi-quote button (to the right of Quote). ;)
This user would like to thank makeabigwish for this useful post:
This user groans at makeabigwish for this post:
  #68  
Old 25.10.2015, 21:16
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,144
Groaned at 926 Times in 722 Posts
Thanked 19,734 Times in 9,481 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
Yes, as I said earlier, I realize my US/Canada statement is on dangerous ground.

I'm not saying rah-rah Democrat, Republican, or even USA/Canada.

There are and have been horrible racial problems.

I'm just saying that it says something that at the very minimum, it is for the most part considered a complete non-starter for a major political party in many other western countries around the world to spend buckets of money on posters depicting a racial group as evil in dark black and red as a menace to society and that there would be negative political consequences for doing so.
Perhaps, but in this case they actually have a point.

Tom
  #69  
Old 25.10.2015, 21:22
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 911
Groaned at 95 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 289 Times in 189 Posts
JakubB is considered unworthyJakubB is considered unworthyJakubB is considered unworthyJakubB is considered unworthy
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
Since this is the complaint's corner ....

Would the SVP please stop joining the very long queue of groups who have been kicking (or stoning) muslim women in the head (both physically and metaphorically) for centuries?

More specifically, can they stop singling out Muslim women by demonizing them in their anti-immigration posters?

Yes, I can appreciate a well articulated argument about their concerns about large scale immigration.

Yes, I can entertain a respectful discussion about their desire to keep alive and thriving classically Swiss traditions, values and culture.

Do they have to make their point by singling out and picking on one of the most oppressed groups of people in the world?

While there are many strong, advantaged muslim women, everyone knows that there are way too many muslim women that have a very rough life with very little rights.

Is the SVP so un-creative that they are incapable of making a successful argument without picking on the people at the bottom of the pile who have little voice or resources?

If the SVP is supposedly full of successful, educated business people and farmers from one of the richest, most stable countries in the world with the best social welfare, why don't they go pick on someone their own size.

I'm very surprised that other SVP members, and the Swiss population at large, is not even more outraged at stuff like this and this kind of smearing and ostracizing hasn't marginalized them to the ridiculousness.

How can they produce such demonizing posters of women of a particular race and still remain a large, viable party?

How can the Swiss, home of the UN, Red Cross and countless world peace organizations, be a beacon of peace for the world and yet a major portion of their politics is not capable of making a respectful argument without demonizing one of the most downtrodden segments of our world population?

How can the Swiss go around the world negotiating peace deals, when they seem to stomach racial demonizing at home?

Too much of the Swiss population at large is tolerating the bar to be set too low. They are much more humane and capable of better than this.



Don't worry, they don't like Poles too (me) :P
This user would like to thank JakubB for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 25.10.2015, 21:36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
Quote:
View Post
Perhaps, but in this case they actually have a point.

Tom
Sorry, really don't understand. Can you explain what you mean?

Muslim women are evil and menacing?

As gender ethnic groups around the world, they are one of the ones who have it the toughest with the least voice and power.

Also, the Muslim women who have been given permission to live in CH, are going to have the biggest influence on the integration of the next generation of Swiss with Muslim heritage. (i.e. if you want to succeed in helping a kid, teach their mother).

Wouldn't it be a good idea to help them feel good about their part in contributing to the future of Switzerland?

The irony of all this is that many Muslim women (and families in general) often have fairly conservative views and typically share many of the same basic values as the SVP on things such as family, etc.

Many would actually vote towards the right of the spectrum and there are many platforms from the more left parties that many wouldn't go for.

However, being depicted as evil might put a damper on championing the SVP in their communities.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 25.10.2015 at 21:57. Reason: merging consecutive replies; try the multi-quote button (to the right of Quote). ;)
  #71  
Old 25.10.2015, 23:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,191
Groaned at 529 Times in 401 Posts
Thanked 11,945 Times in 4,676 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, really don't understand. Can you explain what you mean?

Muslim women are evil and menacing?
You really are one of those people who can't read between the lines and instead takes everything they read literally, aren't you?

Last edited by Richdog; 25.10.2015 at 23:43.
The following 4 users would like to thank Richdog for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 26.10.2015, 00:00
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Someone help me out here ....

This thread is four pages long with 70 posts, and only a handful seem to say "fostering hatred is not a good idea".

Isn't having public posters depicting people as evil not a great long term strategy for a society?
The following 4 users groan at makeabigwish for this post:
  #73  
Old 26.10.2015, 00:06
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,819
Groaned at 189 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 24,343 Times in 6,541 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
This thread is four pages long with 70 posts, and only a handful seem to say "fostering hatred is not a good idea"
If more people post in your ranting thread do the posters magically disappear?
The following 3 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 26.10.2015, 00:51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
If more people post in your ranting thread do the posters magically disappear?
It would be nice to know others value "basically respect others, even if different".

I almost never get involved in EF political threads.

However, I feel "avoid ostracizing fairly powerless people" is a pretty basic value and matters a lot.

Putting up posters showing others as evil just boggles my mind.

I thought we learned just a little about that lesson in the last world war.

It freaks me out even more that people don't seem to care that much.

It is very eye-opening and really makes me wonder what kind of community am I living in.

Also, although admittedly I have been ranting, the EF forum leaders make my posts look even more like a wild ranting by the way they keep editing and combining my different posts on slightly different replies / trains of thought into one huge long post.
  #75  
Old 26.10.2015, 00:57
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Luzern
Posts: 918
Groaned at 118 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 2,210 Times in 859 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

can you post an image of one of these so-called hate inspiring posters?

I'm asking seriously, so I can understand the thread better. Maybe i dont get out enough or dont pay attention when I do, but i'm not familiar with the posters...

edit: just tried to search for images, and only saw some masseneinwanderung campaign posters. Is that what you're talking about?

Her eyes look a little shifty behind the burka, but she's not strapped with a bomb or carrying an AK47 (as far as I can tell...)
The following 2 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 26.10.2015, 02:40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 304
Groaned at 40 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 364 Times in 103 Posts
makeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputationmakeabigwish has an excellent reputation
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
can you post an image of one of these so-called hate inspiring posters?

I'm asking seriously, so I can understand the thread better. Maybe i dont get out enough or dont pay attention when I do, but i'm not familiar with the posters...

edit: just tried to search for images, and only saw some masseneinwanderung campaign posters. Is that what you're talking about?

Her eyes look a little shifty behind the burka, but she's not strapped with a bomb or carrying an AK47 (as far as I can tell...)
Here's two old pictures. I can't find the current poster or another one from a couple of years ago, but the images of the women are all basically the same.

You are right in that they aren't violent but they don't make you feel great about yourself living in Switzerland either.

If you were 100% fully integrated Swiss and had a minority heritage, how would it make you feel to look at images like this of your ethnicity over time, every day around your neighborhood as you go to school or work?

I know a number of very successful women in CH with Muslim heritage ... one a top researcher at Univ Hospital Zurich, another one is a neurologist, one a fairly high up executive at SwissRE, another IT web expert at UBS. They haven't worn headscarves for years and look just like any Swiss woman, speak perfect German/Swiss German at work daily. However, sometimes when they pass by these posters, they think for a split second "yuck, they're talking about a part of me". Their daughters aren't seeing images of Muslim women as Swiss doctors and researchers but instead as the dark shadow in Swiss society.

Sure, it's not soul destroying ... but it's not a wonderful long term way forward either.

Because of the style of the current Burka posters (similar to these below) I don't think a lot of Muslim or even non-Muslim women glance at them and think "great, they're helping women". I think instead many, or at least some, women of all backgrounds get the quick impression of "wow, once again they're going after women who are powerless".

Perhaps it's different for guys. Women have it really, really rough in many parts of the world, particularly Muslim women, particularly Muslim women in burkas. I think many well-off women see very oppressed women as their distant sisters in some way, because it could have just as easily been them. Every woman rich, poor, white, non-white, etc experiences feeling potentially vulnerable, "less than" or push around slightly more because they aren't male at some point in their life. I think SVP turns off a number of female voters by tapping into that sensation of being "the weaker sex" when they depict other very disadvantaged female "sisters" in a negative tone. I think most women could say "I know what it feels like to be a female who is made to feel "less than" for some reason, that could be me if I was unlucky".
Attached Thumbnails
svp-stop-picking-muslim-women-muslim-woman-1.jpg   svp-stop-picking-muslim-women-muslim-woman-2.jpg  
The following 2 users groan at makeabigwish for this post:
  #77  
Old 26.10.2015, 06:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,191
Groaned at 529 Times in 401 Posts
Thanked 11,945 Times in 4,676 Posts
Richdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond reputeRichdog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
It would be nice to know others value "basically respect others, even if different".

I almost never get involved in EF political threads.

However, I feel "avoid ostracizing fairly powerless people" is a pretty basic value and matters a lot.

Putting up posters showing others as evil just boggles my mind.

I thought we learned just a little about that lesson in the last world war.

It freaks me out even more that people don't seem to care that much.

It is very eye-opening and really makes me wonder what kind of community am I living in.

Also, although admittedly I have been ranting, the EF forum leaders make my posts look even more like a wild ranting by the way they keep editing and combining my different posts on slightly different replies / trains of thought into one huge long post.
You are falling to the age-old and somewhat cringeworthy trap of assuming that just because you feel passionately enough about something to want to rant about it, that everyone else who refrains from doing so doesn't care about all of the things wrong with the world and are of course cold and insensitive neanderthals.

Newsflash: of the many political issues in the world to be getting heated up about at the moment, SVP posters with anti Islamic sentiments may not necessarily be on everyone's priority list. It doesn't make Switzerland a bad country, or the people in it monsters.

People who come to this country have to accept and abide by the local law, and one of those is a very open political system where people are free to voice their opinions, no matter how controversial some people may find them.

While no-one should ever be persecuted for their faith, those who follow Islam have to be on some level aware that by coming to and settling in Switzerland they are now in a relatively deeply conservative Christian country, and that today their religion is itself not making exactly making popular in the West or famous for its openness or tolerance towards other races and religions. The fact is life in Switzerland probably doesn't get any safer for a Muslim woman, and when you compare it to the UK where Muslim women, especially those wearing a veil, have been subject to horrible attacks, then maybe dealing with a little political freedom of speech from a party that basically doesn't like most religions or immigration in general, isn't the end of the world.

Last edited by Richdog; 26.10.2015 at 08:55.
The following 4 users would like to thank Richdog for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 26.10.2015, 08:16
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,989
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,272 Times in 5,015 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

It's anti- and stereotypical of Muslims. It may even foster hate and fear of Muslims (I think it does). It's picking on Muslims, by implying that mass immigration will lead to a burkanised society. Of course anyone who isn't hopelessy parochial and ignorant is well aware that the many many Muslim women don't wear burkas. Rather headscarfs, like the women of Yorkshire wore when I was growing up.

But one thing it isn't doing, is picking on Muslim women.
The following 4 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 26.10.2015, 08:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 5,116
Groaned at 189 Times in 148 Posts
Thanked 6,077 Times in 3,285 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
If you were 100% fully integrated Swiss and had a minority heritage, how would it make you feel to look at images like this of your ethnicity over time, every day around your neighborhood as you go to school or work?

I know a number of very successful women in CH with Muslim heritage ... one a top researcher at Univ Hospital Zurich, another one is a neurologist, one a fairly high up executive at SwissRE, another IT web expert at UBS. They haven't worn headscarves for years and look just like any Swiss woman, speak perfect German/Swiss German at work daily. However, sometimes when they pass by these posters, they think for a split second "yuck, they're talking about a part of me". Their daughters aren't seeing images of Muslim women as Swiss doctors and researchers but instead as the dark shadow in Swiss society.

Sure, it's not soul destroying ... but it's not a wonderful long term way forward either.

Because of the style of the current Burka posters (similar to these below) I don't think a lot of Muslim or even non-Muslim women glance at them and think "great, they're helping women". I think instead many, or at least some, women of all backgrounds get the quick impression of "wow, once again they're going after women who are powerless".

Perhaps it's different for guys. Women have it really, really rough in many parts of the world, particularly Muslim women, particularly Muslim women in burkas. I think many well-off women see very oppressed women as their distant sisters in some way, because it could have just as easily been them. Every woman rich, poor, white, non-white, etc experiences feeling potentially vulnerable, "less than" or push around slightly more because they aren't male at some point in their life. I think SVP turns off a number of female voters by tapping into that sensation of being "the weaker sex" when they depict other very disadvantaged female "sisters" in a negative tone. I think most women could say "I know what it feels like to be a female who is made to feel "less than" for some reason, that could be me if I was unlucky".
I think you confuse ethnicity with religion.
However, let us not be too didactic and lets strictly refer to the posters issue - SVP is known to pick on many people, not just Muslims. In short - they are against mass immigration and foreigners in general.
They will never show "success" foreigners and immigration stories on posters.
It is simply the way they do these things..
Nothing special.
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 26.10.2015, 08:52
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,144
Groaned at 926 Times in 722 Posts
Thanked 19,734 Times in 9,481 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: To SVP: Stop picking on Muslim Women

Quote:
View Post
You really are one of those people who can't read between the lines and instead takes everything they read literally, aren't you?
Well, even literally, the anti-minaret postors raise several points.

Tom
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stop educating women in Switzerland RTN Education 82 09.06.2015 12:46
Muslim women can be religious leaders: study The Local Swiss news via The Local 5 19.11.2012 08:34
SVP seeks women’s votes with muscle man The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 16.08.2011 12:31
Pregnant foreign women to pay double for healthcare - SVP at it again Carlos R Jokes/funnies 33 07.07.2011 12:28
Somewhere to stop on Motorway to England cbb General off-topic 3 04.08.2010 01:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0