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  #141  
Old 18.11.2015, 21:22
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

I guess it all depends where you come from and what you're used too. Being from the States, I find it annoying walking around with all this change & always looking for the next ATM machine to get cash before going out for an evening.

I would much prefer just swiping a card or using Apple Pay, bitcoins, whatever other electronic means you have at your disposal.

Someday, these bills & coins will go away or be used very little.
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  #142  
Old 18.11.2015, 21:37
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

I think the number of places in CH that take only cash is getting very few compared to when we first came in 2001. In fact, at the Migros mini supermarket by Zurich Altstetten station, the automated checkouts take only plastic - you have to queue up at a (wo)manned till to pay cash.

The only recent example of cash-only was a farmhouse restaurant we went to on Saturday in Cademario - but it was no big deal as there was a Postbank across the road.

As somebody said, if we're walking somewhere more remote, we just remember to take a few francs for a beer on top of the mountain etc etc.

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  #143  
Old 18.11.2015, 22:06
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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The only point I am making is that if you want sympathy on this forum regarding lack of customer service in Switzerland, you might want to restrict your examples to situations which did not have a positive element. Avoiding purchasing a pet that your kid says she did not really want is definitely a positive, especially in Switzerland, due to the difficulty in rehoming.

Where is this positive element? As I said multiple times, our daughter DID want a hamster! When we did not get her one and time passed, she reconsidered getting another pet with a short life span. The experience likely was quite traumatic for her and later in life she may cope extremely poorly with mortality. I don't know that and I certainly don't wish that on her. The service was poor; it is ok to live with such and accept it, but it should be recognized as what it is.


The Swiss are no dummies when it comes to service (as Wife-of-a-swiss already commented). Maybe inconvenient service used to be more the norm, but the business landscape is changing. The restaurant across the alley from our practice used to be a dump; few people went there. Now, with new owners, faster and friendlier service, better selection of beer AND a new credit card machine, they are getting so busy that you often can't get a table. As small business owners ourselves we similarly strive to offer better customer experience. It is universally preferred; the US just got there first because it was a larger, more open and more competitive market. Switzerland is going in exactly the same direction, much to the delight of consumers. I type this while sipping on a fabulous Sangiovese bought at the Zugermesse - it seems wine merchants are getting more numerous every year much to the delight of the wine drinkers.
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  #144  
Old 18.11.2015, 22:42
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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Yeah, but I know because I've lived there .... but don't take my word for it ....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/14....traces.money/


If you have given the article in support of your statement it was a really poor support. First, it points to how universally awesome the USD is as a global currency. Second, the study never tested credit cards, just the cash; so, the conclusion can be that cash is dirty and credit cards are not. Third, Carlos Estevez was never implicated in the study. Fourth, the article never mentioned that drugs were not a problem in the UK. But you know who mentioned that? The Daily Mail. They ran this wonderful article about the rise of middle-aged drug use in the UK. Don't take my word for it, I have only visited the UK a few times! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...omethings.html
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  #145  
Old 18.11.2015, 22:44
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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I guess it all depends where you come from and what you're used too. Being from the States, I find it annoying walking around with all this change & always looking for the next ATM machine to get cash before going out for an evening.

I would much prefer just swiping a card or using Apple Pay, bitcoins, whatever other electronic means you have at your disposal.

Someday, these bills & coins will go away or be used very little.


I agree, but when this happens a lot of the people who are posting their pro cash reasons will need a psychiatrist because they would not be able to overwhelm their grief...and then the psychiatrists clinics would demand only credit card...omg such a disaster, that would be worth to see
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  #146  
Old 18.11.2015, 22:53
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

I generally dislike carrying cash and prefer a card, or even better, here over the pond, whenever possible I pay through my phone. Some of the bigger stores have apps that you can download, and/or e-cards that I load with cash/credit through Paypal or authorized direct debit via my bank account that I have previously set up. I love it - for me, the less stuff I carry around, the better, since I am clumsy, forgetful, misplace stuff, etc. (and I am always carrying my phone anyway).

Having said that, having been caught off-guard by more than one cash-only place in Switzerland, I used to always carry cash - when in Rome, etc. Just the way it is I guess, just was glad to HAVE the cash to carry around in the first place! Funny enough, I have the same issue every time I go to San Francisco, CA where there seem to be an unusual number of cash-only places.
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  #147  
Old 19.11.2015, 08:36
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

Govt's would love cash to disapeart being replaced with electronic means, it would make tax far simpler to control/collect

I really don't see money diappearing fast until we get rid of large bills (meaning €500 / Chf 1'000.--) the small bills of the US/UK ($100 / £50.) are not really much anyway already
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  #148  
Old 19.11.2015, 08:51
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

What I don't get is the Americans bitching about cash - every American I have met has had a money clip with a wad full of cash. Admittedly that wad might amount to just 30 dollars and solely be used for tipping people for just doing their job.

When is a 40 dollar meal not a 40 dollar meal? When you are obligated to use valet parking (parking fee + tip to take car + tip to get car) and pay a 20% tip.

Tipping breeds a contemptuous society - those who tip look down on those who are tipped and those jobs are considered low skilled and the workforce disposable. I struggle to understand what is wrong with paying a fair price for something so the workers can be paid a fair living wage without having to fain a sugary sweet "have a nice day"
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  #149  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:21
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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What I don't get is the Americans bitching about cash - every American I have met has had a money clip with a wad full of cash. Admittedly that wad might amount to just 30 dollars and solely be used for tipping people for just doing their job.

When is a 40 dollar meal not a 40 dollar meal? When you are obligated to use valet parking (parking fee + tip to take car + tip to get car) and pay a 20% tip.

Tipping breeds a contemptuous society - those who tip look down on those who are tipped and those jobs are considered low skilled and the workforce disposable. I struggle to understand what is wrong with paying a fair price for something so the workers can be paid a fair living wage without having to fain a sugary sweet "have a nice day"
You are not obliged to tip anyone or anything. Do you prefer a shitty service with a "have a crappy day" instead? Your arguments are silly.
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  #150  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:22
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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What I don't get is the Americans bitching about cash - every American I have met has had a money clip with a wad full of cash. Admittedly that wad might amount to just 30 dollars and solely be used for tipping people for just doing their job.

When is a 40 dollar meal not a 40 dollar meal? When you are obligated to use valet parking (parking fee + tip to take car + tip to get car) and pay a 20% tip.

Tipping breeds a contemptuous society - those who tip look down on those who are tipped and those jobs are considered low skilled and the workforce disposable. I struggle to understand what is wrong with paying a fair price for something so the workers can be paid a fair living wage without having to fain a sugary sweet "have a nice day"
In my job, tipping is defined as bribing...
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  #151  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:25
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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What I don't get is the Americans bitching about cash - every American I have met has had a money clip with a wad full of cash. Admittedly that wad might amount to just 30 dollars and solely be used for tipping people for just doing their job.

When is a 40 dollar meal not a 40 dollar meal? When you are obligated to use valet parking (parking fee + tip to take car + tip to get car) and pay a 20% tip.

Tipping breeds a contemptuous society - those who tip look down on those who are tipped and those jobs are considered low skilled and the workforce disposable. I struggle to understand what is wrong with paying a fair price for something so the workers can be paid a fair living wage without having to fain a sugary sweet "have a nice day"
Beside that you have really silly arguments, you seem to forget that most of the countries in the world have a cast system.It is not only the USA. Your so praised Britain is no different.
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  #152  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:35
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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You are not obliged to tip anyone or anything. Do you prefer a shitty service with a "have a crappy day" instead? Your arguments are silly.
I presume you're not used to having a constructive conversation about a topic, so I'll let your facetious comment slide.

What I am suggesting is that by paying low base wages and in effect forcing people to work multiple jobs you perpetuate a culture of the "haves" and the "have nots". The balance should not be that tipping leads to good service, but that excellent service leads to tipping. The individual should be motivated, and remunerated within their job, to deliver good service no matter what the end client hands them in (undeclared) income.

An individual who isn't great at their (customer facing) job will inevitably lose their job due to poor performance.
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  #153  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:40
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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What I don't get is the Americans bitching about cash - every American I have met has had a money clip with a wad full of cash. Admittedly that wad might amount to just 30 dollars and solely be used for tipping people for just doing their job.

When is a 40 dollar meal not a 40 dollar meal? When you are obligated to use valet parking (parking fee + tip to take car + tip to get car) and pay a 20% tip.

Tipping breeds a contemptuous society - those who tip look down on those who are tipped and those jobs are considered low skilled and the workforce disposable. I struggle to understand what is wrong with paying a fair price for something so the workers can be paid a fair living wage without having to fain a sugary sweet "have a nice day"

I would take the 'have a nice day' any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And many a legal, business, or medical student has gone through school bartending or valet-parking on the weekend/evenings making MUCH better than the minimal wage.


What is a 'fair' price? Who determines that 'fair' price of yours? And why do you think a higher price for the meal itself will necessarily result in a much better wage for the waiter? At least by tipping the people that truly provide good service you are assured of at least two things - the effort to provide the better service (and the meritocracy it drives) and that the money will end up with the person you intended to have it, rather than to passing it through a middleman.


And it could very well be that 'looking down' on people may be more the European than the American way. :-)


You can be an anti-American but don't let that blind your logic.
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  #154  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:45
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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I would take the 'have a nice day' any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And many a legal, business, or medical student has gone through school bartending or valet-parking on the weekend/evenings making MUCH better than the minimal wage.
these are high potential people. you cannot compare it to people doing this as a regular job.
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  #155  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:50
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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What is a 'fair' price? Who determines that 'fair' price of yours? And why do you think a higher price for the meal itself will necessarily result in a much better wage for the waiter? At least by tipping the people that truly provide good service you are assured of at least two things - the effort to provide the better service (and the meritocracy it drives) and that the money will end up with the person you intended to have it, rather than to passing it through a middleman.
In a culture where tipping is the norm you'll end up in a situation when the service level decreases rather than increases. If the social norm is to tip 15% you will continue to do so even if you have had shoddy service as socially you feel obligated to do so. If the norm is not to tip, you'll leave no tip and feel a great obligation to complain.

Furthermore the tip is monetized representation of the overall service received - so if a server is sickly sweet and is perfect in delivering your food, but the food is ghastly it is much harder to complain. And do you then feel comfortable tipping when the quality of the food was so terrible?

This is not about being anti-American it about having a level of social responsibility which says that someone working a full time job should be paid a living wage.

There is a time and a place for tipping, and I believe that it should be for exemplary service and not for just service. After all, I am perfectly able to find my own hotel room, insert the room key and turn the lights on all by myself.

(And I'd consider my politics to be blue)
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  #156  
Old 19.11.2015, 09:56
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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I presume you're not used to having a constructive conversation about a topic, so I'll let your facetious comment slide.

So your way of 'constructive conversation' is to call other's posts pathetic, but when people disagree with you and call your comments 'silly' you suddenly take exception? How generous of you to let it slide!

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What I am suggesting is that by paying low base wages and in effect forcing people to work multiple jobs you perpetuate a culture of the "haves" and the "have nots". The balance should not be that tipping leads to good service, but that excellent service leads to tipping. The individual should be motivated, and remunerated within their job, to deliver good service no matter what the end client hands them in (undeclared) income.

[QUOTE=dodgyken;2488244]Man, you start with tipping and end up with the basis of Marxist ideology - to everyone according to his needs and from every according to his abilities. You will NEVER be a 'have' on a waiter job in ANY society. Period. I don't see many waiters in Switzerland driving luxury cars or living on a lakeside mention. Do you?

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An individual who isn't great at their (customer facing) job will inevitably lose their job due to poor performance.

And what in your mind should determine whether this person loses their job or not? A government agency? A union? If one is at a customer facing job shouldn't the measure of performance be customer happiness?
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:56
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

Two different approaches and each has pros and cons:

1. A society where you can get a job only if you have the diploma as proof of knowledge. This affords limited movement on the career ladder or changing career paths, so if you are trapped doing something you later realize you don't like, or are a late bloomer, there are limited opportunities to getting out of it. In the case of CH, one gets decent employment and retirement package at many levels of income. The society fends for the individual when one finds oneself in a tight spot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Switzerland
http://business.inquirer.net/174776/...ch-switzerland

2. A society (the US) where you can get the job or start a business without having a degree in that particular field. Knowledge is valued above the diploma. The opportunity to start small, even as a busboy, and grow. It takes a lot of work and smarts. One has to fend for oneself: plan for the future, health insurance, etc. Limited to no social safety net.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Povert..._United_States

Both models have to deal with poverty, and the poor have to face severe hardships. But the new immigrants in the States have more options and opportunities to integrate, put themselves thorough school, etc. I don't think they face as much prejudice as people in Europe, especially once they prove themselves through hard work and decent values.

I am much more optimistic regarding a poor and smart person in the US than the poor and smart person in Europe.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:58
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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I presume you're not used to having a constructive conversation about a topic, so I'll let your facetious comment slide.

What I am suggesting is that by paying low base wages and in effect forcing people to work multiple jobs you perpetuate a culture of the "haves" and the "have nots". The balance should not be that tipping leads to good service, but that excellent service leads to tipping. The individual should be motivated, and remunerated within their job, to deliver good service no matter what the end client hands them in (undeclared) income.

An individual who isn't great at their (customer facing) job will inevitably lose their job due to poor performance.
You obviously didn't understand what I said. You are not obliged to tip. I tip only if the service was good and didn't tip when the service was underperformed. As you said only excellent service leads to tipping.
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Old 19.11.2015, 09:59
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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You are not obliged to tip anyone or anything. Do you prefer a shitty service with a "have a crappy day" instead? Your arguments are silly.

In Switzerland you are obliged to tip in restaurants because the service charge is included - by law. You don't need to add anything to your bill and plenty of people still don't because they remember voting for it or against it at the time (about 30 years ago) when Mövenpick raised the issue. The complaint from Mövenpick was that the waiters/waitresses up front got all of the money whilst the cooks and bottlewashers got nothing. Now the official tips (13%) go into a kitty and are shared out amongst all staff and are included in the salary slips for tax purposes.
I only tip if the service is above normal in some way.
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Old 19.11.2015, 10:07
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Re: Miss the level of service in the USA

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I don't see many waiters in Switzerland driving luxury cars or living on a lakeside mention. Do you?
Yes, actually.

Tom
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