Anybody here had much success with "haggling" on prices?

Anywhere else in the world attempting to "haggle", or negotiate a cheaper price for goods/services, is more often than not acceptable, at least to try, and in many cases successful.

Here however, haggling seems to be almost an insult. Even when I've been diplomatic, by using phrases like "is that the absolute best price?" I am greeted by looks of shock that I should even question the highly inflated marked price. I should know my place as a ignorant consumer.

Funny you should mention this... I'm currently hunting around for a larger "office" space. I went to look at this place this morning and it was absolutly stunning. However, the price was ridiculous. So I took a deep breath and asked if the rent was negotiable. Expecting a disdainful look with a simple, no I was knocked for six when the estate agent said, "send me an offer and we can talk about it". Although I doubt very much that they would accept my offer, it will be fun to try!

Well to be fair - is that phrase diplomatic? Whenever I hear it gets my back up. Negotiation is a gentle art which involves dialogue, and the parties learning about the needs of the other.

A while back I stayed in South Africa and had to sell a car. You wouldn't believe how many people phoned up, and without even so much as asking a few questions or introducing themselves would say "is that your best price". So what? Was I expected to negotiate myself down in response? I was shocked and insulted - these people had no manners.

I was actually grateful to come back to Switzerland where people weren't trying to screw me on every single price. There have been a few times when I have negotiated in Switzerland, but I have always made some sort of concession to "earn" the discount. For example last week I spent a rather large sum on an ergonomic desk and chair. After I'd decided what I wanted I explained that I would pay for the order, in cash, at that moment, even though the delivery time was 6 weeks. In return for this consideration, would they be prepared to offer me a discount? Now I should point out that it was clear that I was buying, I would have accepted the products without a discount, but the guy was nice and offered me 10%, without any awkwardness.

So I think it depends on the situation, and whether it is appropriate to haggle in that particular situation and how it is done. "is that your best price?" is (in my opinion) extremely cheeky, and would no doubt be greeted with shock.

What exactly were the things you were haggling over? How would you feel for example if someone haggled with you over something quite personal to you like your salary or your rate (if you are a contractor). Imagine you go to a job interview and straight away, before they get to know who you are, and what your offer the company says "is that your best rate?" How would that make you feel?

I think another thing we have to bear in mind when we feel we are being faced with inflated prices is that often this is no fault of the business - they might be getting screwed by an importer, and the fact is that everyone has to make higher margins in this country because of the increased cost of doing business - business is tough in this country and something like 1 in 10 people live below the poverty line. Anyway, I'm rambling a bit - but just trying to put forward an alternative view point.

Mark

I suspect that real estate agents are often far removed from owners. If you were dealing with owners I'm sure that they would be flexible, especially if their property is sitting empty. Real estate agents are probably paid regardless and might stand to make more financial gain from holding out for the higher price. They probably don't even bother to inform owners of alternative offers! One thing I have noticed is that there is often very little competition between real estate agents - a few agents seem to represent most of the market - for some reason it must be hard for smaller real estate business to survive.

Mark

the fact that you find the phrase "is that your best price" extremely cheeky should provide the original poster with all the information that they need.

obviously there is a time and a place for price negotiation, and there are good and bad ways to go about it. but the ultimate goal for any buyer interested in negotiation is to find out exactly just what the best price is, no matter that the goals of the seller vary. some are insulted, some arent.

but the fact remains that price negotiation over the vast variety of goods here in switzerland remains undeveloped to say the least.

i also see no reason for you to be shocked and insulted by experiencing how other things are in other countries and cultures far removed from your own.

I enjoy the process of negotiation very much, as do many sellers. Buying a rug behind closed doors in a middle eastern bazaar, sipping tea with the proprietor. Saffron in a busy spice market in South America. A chess board in Mexico. Haha even an IWC in Zurich. All memorable bargaining experiences from which I have profited, not neccessarily at the sellers expense... there is a "fair" price for most things and simply buying retail prices is usually not that!

However, I will accept from no one that buying at list price is an obligation to "help business" or the "cost of doing business"..... at least perhaps outside of wartime.

Please take this post in the manner of lively discussion, to which it is intended.

You cant compare a spontaeneous purchase to a job contract, which is an ongoing relationship. If I was an entrepeneur and someone asked me "is that your best price", I would take it as the customer exercising his/her basic free-market right, regardless of it being at the introduction or not. If my price is not negotiable I would certainly say "yes, its my best price", and the customer can exercise his/her free-market right to take it or leave it.

As for the item I was haggling for, it was two pieces of furniture for our new apartment. Because we were choosing two pieces we wanted to see if they could round down the price. The pieces involved were run-outs anyway, but we just got a flat take it or leave it. So we left it.

Yes, it is tough to be competitive in Switzerland, but hey, that is Switzerlands dilemna. The wealth distribution is becoming more polarised, like in many other first world countries, and the poorer majority must seek the cheapest price. Weak businesses go under, reducing competition, and the cycle continues.

You can blame the internet for a lot. I am sorry to admit it, but I am a serious cycling enthusiast, and I buy most of my parts from Ireland on the internet because I save about 20%, even after I have paid import charges. Last year I bought a new Ti racing bike delivered from the US for 5'000chf, here the exact same bike would have cost 7'500chf. I would have bought local but merchants here were choosing not to pass on the exchange rate advantage at the time.

There are two things I would like to say with regards to negotiation. Firstly, as a card carrying yorkshireman, with the exception of food, I cannot remember the last time I paid list price for something, even here in CH. The last thing I bought was four chairs for a squash club and I paid 150 each against the list(ticket) price of 225. And here it was not that the owner wanted rid of the last four or something. He had to order them in especially...
So remember that Mark when it comes for domain fees renewal

Secondly, CH is really quite cheap for all things velo! I am surprised that you have managed to get things cheaper in Ireland, have you tried negotiating the price I find the secret to negotiating is to find the owner of the shop and talk to them and not some assistant who is not interested in the turnover.

On a related but different theme, in one of my many nights in a hotel I watched a program about the success of pret a manger. It was very interesting to hear that each assistant there has the right to adjust the price as they see fit ie they expect and are trained to negotiate and we are talking fast food here!!! Has anyone any experience of this?

Richard

nice post richard.

i concur... i remember haggling for my mountain bike here in ch. at first, the owner of the shop was insulted that i even asked. but by the end of the conversation, not only were we fast friends, but i received a healthy discount. by developing that relationship, he and i have both profited further. me from good service. him from the other things i have subsequently purchased.

the pret a manger comment is interesting as well.

to be honest though, i would love to see pret in zurich... how many times have i thought that?? no need for haggling there... just bring me all the Super Club's that you have!

I buy from www.totalcycling.com . They specialise in high-end roadbike stuff. Good example is the Polar 725i heartrate monitor with output sensor costs about the same in Ireland as it is here without the sensor. I usually don't order for less than 800chf because of the custom flat fees make anything less hardly worth it. As for negotiating, I guess I have had bad luck as I have tried numerous times with little success, and that was with the owners. Could be also because I am not a native. Or maybe its just an east-switzerland thing.

Agencies do this all the time. I have often been asked (unsuccessfully) whether I would consider a lower rate, even before the role has been discussed.

Negotiation is cultural too. Theres a good book called "Everything is Negotiable" in which an example is cited in which this woman in the US from some land far away piled her supermarket trolley high with stuff, and then proceeded to haggle with the checkout person. The managwer was so shocked he offered her a discount on her purchases. Mission accomplished.

Haggling should always be attempted, but with a clear idea of your position. Its no good asking for a discount when he is wrapping the stuff and has your creditcard. Its usually pretty clear when customers have made up their mind. A good salesman can spot it a mile off. Especially with cars for example : people buy on emotion and justify with fact.

At the risk of riddling my post with cliches.: something is only worth what someone will pay for it. Even Migros are carrying out grey imports of food as they don't want to pay swiss distributors...

Check out the prices in Germany and France (minus the 17.5% MWst and plus the swiss 7.6%) and if necessary import it. This can also serve as bargaining tool in itself.

dave

I've haggled quite spontaneously on the Bahnhofstr. I tried a pair of very expensive boots on which though reduced still cost a fortune. It was a fluke i'm sure but my brain picked up on the comment "most people cant get in to them" as i slipped into them without any problem i said "perfect fit but unfortunately they`r over my budget" it must have been the boss because she reduced them another 50francs. Needless to say i was chuffed.

I lived in Istanbul, Turkey for two years and haggling was considered to be part of the experience of shopping. Not for food or basic household things like gas, electricity, water, etc. but for most all other consumer products.

In fact when at the Grand covered Bazaar in Istanbul it was considered poor form not to negotiate. It took a few weeks of practice but as I was a negotiations were a part of my profession it came rather easy. The shopkeepers always inflated the price by two or three when a "foreigner" asked about an item. If you paid the price as many tourist did the shopkeeper would just shake his head when the customer had left the area.

If you knew going in that the price was inflated by two or three you were halfway to a bargain. You would never say that's too much or anything that would denegrate the item. You would use phrases such as: "I can not afford that much but thank you for showing it to me" or "that's too much for my thin wallet" or "thank you for your time but I think I continue walking around and looking at other possible gifts before I decide". You could usually tell when you were at the storekeepers best price when he would not call after you to come back when you attempted to leave.
We would say we negotiated with our feet. I usually worked. Anything you could buy at one stall you could usually buy at a dozen stalls.

It is similar to buying an automobile. The salesman has to decide if the price you offer is the best he will get in the time he has to sell the automobile or will someone else come in within an hour who will offer him more money than you have.

In the US we have elevated the art to the point where we call it negotiations as if that term makes it more acceptable but it is still haggling. We don't consider it poor manners to negotiate the prices of items at a puce marche (flea market) or for a house or automobile, be it new or previously owned (used).

It's a curious thing that when someone here buys a car they tell you what a great deal they got and that they did not pay a pence more than necessary even if they have to shave something off the price they actually paid, but when they buy a new suit of clothes or a pair of expensive shoes they almost always inflate the price.

At Christmas last year I went to a jewelry store to buy a Tennis Bracelet for a lady friend and I asked the saleman if he could reduce the price by any amount. The salesman talked to his manager and came back with a price reduction of 30%.

I could have probably got another 10% but it is sometimes best to accept the reduction as if you get a reputation for squeezing the last percent out of a price everytime you come in they will not look forward to your visits.

The next time I can be pretty well assured of at least 30% off almost all prices and not have to go through the negotiations again and again.

It is a complex behavior and differs with each culture you encounter but with a little courtesy and patience you may find those extra francs in your wallet and not the shopkeepers.

Have I ever negotiated a better price in Suisse? Yes on two ocassions. Once I was in Neuchatel and went to a restaurant for breakfast and was astounded at the menu prices. I talked to the owner and when I told him what the price was in the US for the same items he reduced the price to me and Fabian and I came to be good friends.

Another time I managed to negotiate down the price of a watch.

It can be done but you have to pick your objective carefully. Do not go to Jemoli and expect to get a reduction on a coat. The salesperson at Jemoli has no vested interest in selling you anything, he/she still get the same salary at the end of the week.

If you select a small shop where the saleman is also the owner your chances of a reduction are greater. The shop owner sees his income as being in direct proportion to what he sells and will be more willing to consider a reduction especially if it is at the end of the saeson and he has had the coat on his rack for months and you may be his last chance to sell it.

An interesting post,especially what you said about not denigrating the product. I have on occasion felt somewhat awkward about "what to say" when the crunch time comes. Good salespeople are trained to overcome objections and make the close and can anticipate your behaviour. They do this for a living. Most buyers are amateurs, and buy large ticket items rarely. So I would have up your sleeve 10 reasons why you are not going to pay the asking price even before you walk into the shop. Preparation is everything. Is the watch last years model ? Is a new range imminent ? There are many such "holes you can pick" and its difficult to be spontaneous without slagging off the product or its seller...


So although I am no expert, "be prepared" is the best advice I can think of, along with "if you don't ask, you don't get"

dave

Dave,

It is considered very acceptable to ask a Contractor the price(s) of their services. In fact all contractors usually submit their published rates of pay for the various categories of labor they can provide.

As for a prospective employee it is also acceptable, within limits, to ask their expectations for compensation. Although specific compensation is readily available from firms that track these numbers for all categories of labor they are always expressed as a range of salaries depending on the individual applicants experience, education, etc. Other pertinent or specific job requirements that the employer is looking for are then factored into the salary offered. Unique factors such as Security Clearances or expertise in a specific field will affect the final salary.

Although employees seldom discuss their specific salary with coworkers it is know that similar jobs are paid similar wages. When you get down to the bare facts only the number of years of experience you bring to a job and the expertise you have accumulated over your career seperate you from others in your category of labor and there are limits to all job salaries.

But when you become the boss of a department or other entity within a company all the compensation rules generally go out of the window. Then it is a negotiation between the top executive(s) and you as to your salary and perks. It generally has nothing to do with "needs" but only "wants."

Negototiating is an art and is generally not taught. I know as I taught negotiations for a lot of years and I found it was good to teach the facts and not the art. You teach the culture of the society the student will work in but not the art. You teach the process but not the art.

The process is the most important as it allows the negotiator to look into the pricing of the products he is buying and test those prices against prices he paid for like items. You hope that the all the things you do teach will result in the student absorbing the art as an ancillary part of the lesson.

It generally takes 5 to 10 years to fully develop a top ranked negotiator if he had the right stuff to begin with. You can usually tell within the first year or two and if they do not reach your level of expectation you can shunt them to another area and still end up with a very useful employee.

Make no mistake it is an art and not everone is good at it. In fact very few are very good at it.

This may be completely off base from what you were trying to get across to the readers but I just wanted to stress the fact that negotiating is a very difficult task and even if you are not experienced at it or are intimidated by it don't dispair. Most salespeople aren't expert at it either. Although it is his/her job he/she is generally not up to the task. So try him on for size. Don't be rude and above all be courteous. Even if you don't buy the product you will probably have made a new friend and that is an accomplishment in itself. Above all have fun . It isn't peace negotiations in the Mid-East .

Swisscheese

Its acceptable to give rates in cases where the job is fully-defined and the negotiations are already underway. If you were to ask me to travel to Arctic again for three weeks of data-analysis you would get a different quote pro-rata for a one-year product development contract in my back yard.

That said many mainstream contractors are retained on call-off contracts or magaed as a pool with companies.

There are many factors at play here, and with the trend toward fixed price contracting and risk-sharing, its no longer a case of here's my rate : cost plus profit.

In larger job the strategy of pricing of the job and an analysis of the risks involved plays a much larger part than the hourly rate of the engineers. I have seen bids at both ends of the spectrum: go in really low, get the job and claw in the profits based on changes to the original inadequately-defined specification. At the other end, I have seen consultants regurgitate a report and charge "full" hours for it.

If you're buying a commodity pricing is open; the market is efficient; and comparative shopping is relatively easy. (think Chicago Mercantile Xchange) If you're buying a jet-fighter it certainly isn't and even the concepts and feasibility are not defined. The projects go through many feasibility and technology-proving contracts at cost-plus, before the procurement agency insists on a fixed, or max price.

dave

Just skimmed throught the thread...

When dealing with customers that ask for "a better price", there are situations in which I can afford to be a little flexible, others where I cannot.

I don't take it negative when someone asks, and am always prepared for this question.

With regards to my experiences, I tried on a jacket at Schild and asked for 10% off if I paid with cash, which was immediately agreed upon. There are other purchases made where I paid less only because I asked.

Let me mention this; Use tact. Don't blurt it out, and don't expect it. It works better when paying with cash, forget the credit card at home!

Have fun with your negotiations
Scott

When haggling I've found it useful to consider the sellers options. 2 for 1 doesn't work, but 3 for 2 does, even with Würst.

Give the other fella room to manoeuvre. It's not about losing face: everybody should gain.

I bought an expensive watch for a beautiful lady, but lamented to the saleswoman I could also just forget about the lovely lady and buy myself some bling.

Or I could get the watch for the Honey, but what do I get from the deal?

She smiled, and gave me enough of a reduction to buy a ...Swatch ha! ha! ha!

Still, even on the Bahnhofstrasse in ZH you can get reductions, despite - in my opinion - the quango they operate.

Don't rush. A tactic I learnt when working in the Near East is to look at something less costly, then let your eyes be 'drawn' to the costlier item. Works a treat!

There went the rent money

I negotiate politely with respect and always get something in return

I am constantly amazed by people who have lived here for 10 years or more, and claim that you cannot bargain/haggle/negotiate in Switzerland

I recently got chf 1200 off a used car... from a salesman who at first insisted that all prices were fixed. I also got chf 400 off Media Markt on a Sony LCD TV that was already on special offer, simply because another store was advertising it for less..

The Swiss usually pretend to be shocked at the suggestion, but I have yet to meet one salesman who did not want to sell bad enough to completely refuse to negotiate

come on... don't be shy.. give it a try.
what's the worst that can happen ?

That reminds me of when I bought a car when I first arrived. I probably negotiated a little too agressively (having had experience with used car salesmen in other countries) and the guy seemed a little upset. I got a discount, but felt as if the other party was a little wounded in the process. Not smart on my part if I wanted to have a relationship with him again. Years later I returned to try to sell the car back, but he declined. Whether this was because he still felt a little hurt I don't know.

Lesson learned (through subsequent awareness of the culture) - negotiate, but far more diplomatically than you might be used to in other countries!

The next car I bought went a lot more smoothly. By being "super nice" I got 500 francs off and 8 brand new tires (on a used car).