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  #121  
Old 01.03.2016, 15:40
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Who can really say why a person reacted to you the way that they did. Interpretation based on your own perspective can be misleading, at best, and promote misguided aggression, at worst. Having said that, racism exists absolutely everywhere. Send a thought of loving kindness and move on.
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  #122  
Old 01.03.2016, 17:01
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Get used to these looks hehehe, Today there was a lady on the tram when I asked her to move her backpack from the sit so I could sit she gave me that look.

After so many years here, I now learned to give that look to others too shaking the head on cars that tried to rush on red light and blocked the other lane is a nice pass-time while waiting for tram.
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  #123  
Old 01.03.2016, 17:49
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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After so many years here, I now learned to give that look to others too shaking the head on cars that tried to rush on red light and blocked the other lane is a nice pass-time while waiting for tram.

You'll know you're fully assimilated when the guy ahead of you has pulled far enough into the intersection that he cannot see the light and you then pull up close enough that he cannot reverse to be able to see the light. Then, when the light changes you get to honk your horn etc.
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  #124  
Old 01.03.2016, 17:52
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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Interesting experience yesterday. [..]
Assuming that's what the reaction was caused by:

Is racial profiling racist? If it is, could there be a point (or points) where it becomes non-racist, and where/what would that be?

Assuming it is racist (as I'm expecting many many "yes"), isn't it also racist by for instance insurers to differentiate premiums due based on sex, age, nationality, etc?

Where's the boundary?
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  #125  
Old 01.03.2016, 17:58
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Difficult question- especially in the current circumstances.

If I stand 20m before the customs here- I could tell you exactly which car will or will not be stopped.

Last edited by Odile; 01.03.2016 at 19:49.
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  #126  
Old 01.03.2016, 19:41
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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You'll know you're fully assimilated when the guy ahead of you has pulled far enough into the intersection that he cannot see the light and you then pull up close enough that he cannot reverse to be able to see the light. Then, when the light changes you get to honk your horn etc.
So that was you this morning? Jagoff!


In honesty - it was a cyclist gesticulating wildy. Same idea I guess.
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  #127  
Old 01.03.2016, 19:51
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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So that was you this morning? Jagoff!


In honesty - it was a cyclist gesticulating wildy. Same idea I guess.
NoNo... I'm Canadian, if it were me I would have waved to tell you that the lights had changed.
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  #128  
Old 01.03.2016, 20:47
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Having met the OP personally, it is definitely not a case of racism. Xenophobia possibly on hearing another language spoken or just some grumpy old git who might not even be Swiss. Whatever it was, it would have bothered me for zero seconds.
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  #129  
Old 02.03.2016, 11:38
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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Me, a darker skinned individual. My friends, all white.
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Having met the OP personally, it is definitely not a case of racism.
Hmmm ...

But anyway the question still stands. Of course answers by those who think this is a country full of racists (mhh, what about the 25% foreigners, plus the 10-15% naturalized citizens?) would are of particular interest.

Why for instance did OP not reply? Is it perhaps too complicated of a question for him/her?
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  #130  
Old 04.03.2016, 12:09
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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Of course, as a foreigner, offering improving advice to a Swiss person never ends up well :P



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Re-reading this I wonder if you even realize how snobist and condescending of a statement this is.
As if the swiss needed to be thankful for your generosity.



point well proven!
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  #131  
Old 04.03.2016, 12:28
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Anyone else getting a sense of deja vu?
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  #132  
Old 05.03.2016, 02:35
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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Assuming that's what the reaction was caused by:

Is racial profiling racist? If it is, could there be a point (or points) where it becomes non-racist, and where/what would that be?

Assuming it is racist (as I'm expecting many many "yes"), isn't it also racist by for instance insurers to differentiate premiums due based on sex, age, nationality, etc?

Where's the boundary?
Racial profiling has to be the stupidest method of trying to root out terrorists - I wonder exactly what its success rate is. The reason it is painfully stupid is that any would be terrorist knows it is going on - and therefore will easily avoid becoming subject to it. If you know brown people with a beard and dressed a certain way are more likely to be searched, you avoid this demographic when recruiting. Its sole purpose is to make the other demographics feel like airport security has a handle on things, not to actually achieve results. Even if we pretend terrorists are stupid, it is still not possible to check every member of any one demographic (there are simply too many) so your chance of success is just as naff.

In any case, I would say it was, in my case, pure racial profiling. If it was a truly random check, why would he ignore my suitcase once it was already mounted in the machine?
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  #133  
Old 05.03.2016, 08:31
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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Racial profiling has to be the stupidest method of trying to root out terrorists - I wonder exactly what its success rate is. The reason it is painfully stupid is that any would be terrorist knows it is going on - and therefore will easily avoid becoming subject to it. If you know brown people with a beard and dressed a certain way are more likely to be searched, you avoid this demographic when recruiting. Its sole purpose is to make the other demographics feel like airport security has a handle on things, not to actually achieve results. Even if we pretend terrorists are stupid, it is still not possible to check every member of any one demographic (there are simply too many) so your chance of success is just as naff.

In any case, I would say it was, in my case, pure racial profiling. If it was a truly random check, why would he ignore my suitcase once it was already mounted in the machine?

Be on the lookout for:

A. Male
B. Dark complexion
C. Suspect is travelling alone.
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  #134  
Old 05.03.2016, 11:06
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

I've been told a few times by the locals that it bothers them to hear how much English is now being spoken in Zug and Zürich. For them it feels as if they're losing their "Heimat."

One person told me just last week that he's glad Zug is requiring all expats to learn German for their C permit. I looked at the man and replied that looks are deceiving and many of those foreigners can indeed speak some German already.

Here's what Zug now requires:

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What are the required language levels?

Due to statutory requirements level B1 is required for verbal ability (listening and speaking) and level A2 for written ability (reading and writing). Exceptions can be made for people unable to achieve these requirements through no fault of their own.
The requirements for the individual levels can be found here.

Which language certificates are accepted by the authorities?

Goethe-Certificate

TELC- Certificate

FIDE-Language passport (from Summer 2015).

These certificates can be obtained in Canton Zug upon successful completion of the exam at the following adresses:

- Goethe– Certificate is recognised worldwide. Registration: www.fmzug.ch / 041 728 22 76

- TELC– Certificate is recognised throughout Europe. Registration: www.klubschule.ch / 041 727 11 55
Taken from: http://www.fmzug.ch/en/learn-german-...it-citizenship
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  #135  
Old 05.03.2016, 11:18
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Last week in the German classroom Sprachachule, I was told by the teacher that the English classes were next door, just in case if we wanted to speak in English ...

That was precisely when we were exchanging some information in English during den Deutschkurs. He didn't want to hear anything other than German because it would have made his lessons aka Heimat to lose their purpose, which is to teach us the language. I am 100% with him on that one.

I didn't make a thread in the complaints corner on the EF.

Last edited by jacek; 05.03.2016 at 22:28.
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  #136  
Old 05.03.2016, 22:27
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

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@linros
Since your Profile says you live in Zurich, and you were in a Train, I take it that the kind of fear or caution that villagey people (in Switzerland, and in back valleys and villages the world over) have against newcomers doesn't apply to your example.

Sometimes newcomers do very small things that annoy the locals, without knowing it.

I agree that one of the most annoying is talking loudly. One test of this (that I was taught by a Swiss person when I arrived) is to pause, keeping quiet for at least 30 to 60 seconds, while listening to see whether others are talking loudly. And then to restrict your volume to much less than the loudest person(s) you can hear on the tram/bus/train.

Another is bumping into others, or taking up too much of their personal space. Different cultures can have widely differing senses of when an unknown person is too close. My aforementioned Swiss mentor told me to listen well, and when I see two people speaking fluent Swiss-German (and who are not lovers), to observe how close they stand or sit to each other (where are thier shoulders, hips, elbows, knees), and how they demarkate their space. After I'd done this homework concentratedly for about a year, he told me I'd adjusted and got it right.

A third gripe in public transport is depositing one's luggage/shopping/daypack on a free seat. This is considered exceedingly rude if other passengers are standing, and when the vehicle stops, it is considered good manners to move your bag in anticipation of new passengers who might embark. This is because, even though there may be half-a-dozen seats free, the older/sicker/pregnant/more parenting/more injured people are sometimes genuinely dependent on certain seats (e.g. too frail to walk through the jolting bus to a seat further from the door, too shakey to risk travel-sickness by taking a seat facing backwards, travelling with children so need to sit together). Therefore, other passengers think you're a really considerate person if you visibly demonstrate your making the seats near you available for those newly embarking. Put the other way, because they have been taught that this kind of attentiveness is the way one is supposed to behave, they can sometimes disapprove of anyone who appears to be hogging a seat... even if they don't, themselves, need that seat under your handbag.

Quite apart from such adjustments you could make in your own behaviour, it could really be that the old man's scowl had nothing to do with you, or if so, did not mean disapproval. He might have been wrinkling his brow while trying to decipher which language you were speaking, or trying to place your accent. He might have had back-ache or suddenly remembered how annoyed he is with his neighbour/daughter/doctor, or how much he misses his wife, etc. You get the gist.

Life can be happier, I think, if one can find a healthy balance between checking whether anything about one's own behaviour needs to be modified in order to be culturally appropriate as general good manners, on one hand, and on the other simply not appropriating the unhappiness or unpleasantness of others by interpreting it as personally related to oneself.

I have had quite a difference in my early experiences coming to Switzerland, having spent most of my life in South Wales and Bristol area of the UK, coming to Switzerland, Zurich and Bulach areas, I got a massive culture shock of people talking loudly on the public transportation, provided you can get on them with the lack of queuing and squeezing onto the trains, trams and especially bus.

Typically back home in UK, people would not sit down unless the double seat is empty or really need to due to physical need if one of the seats is already occupied. Here, the locals will happily squeeze up next to you just because the seat is in the forward direction, even when there are other seats around. With this behavior in mind as normal, I still find many locals (hear them speak Swiss German) putting their bags and even dogs onto the seats and not even think twice unless you tell them directly that you would like to sit down.

Personal spaces here in Switzerland is so much smaller than back in UK, frequently people would stand next close enough to feel their breath, yet it seems perfectly normal. I can count on one hand the number of times I have been apologised to from someone bumping into me, whilst the number of times I got bumped is quite a few times per daily commute.

Also had some horribly confusing experiences on trains where local persons advises that I learn Swiss German, even after telling them politely I intend to in due time, then jokes comes out in the local language obviously unknown to me, to the laughter of many in the carriage, many simply confusing and rude experiences have led me to feel that the locals generally lack hospitality compared to other nations.

Overall, I find the locals here more blunt, shows much less etiquette and simply lack chivalry in many cases, though I am getting use to it. So I am curious where your Swiss mentor is from, I would much like to see more locals behaving per your Swiss mentor's standards.
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  #137  
Old 27.03.2016, 00:38
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Of course they are.

My wife gets bent out of shape is anyone dare suggest that she is Italian, Ticinese, or Swiss-German (despite the fact that she sort of is all of the above).

For her, she is Swiss, end-of!

Tom
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  #138  
Old 27.03.2016, 12:21
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

It just human nature my friend. One foreigner is interesting. A group of them and it starts to be an invasion. Racism is all over the world and its been in my own country since day one. Basically its fear!
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  #139  
Old 27.03.2016, 12:40
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

The Swiss are just a bit different, but I would not call them racist. It certainly helps to speak any of the four local languages. I work partly in Zermatt and Dubai. Although live in the Emirates are more or less English based, I learned bits of Arabic. It helps in your daily life.
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  #140  
Old 28.03.2016, 20:49
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Re: Are some of the Swiss - Racists, or it is just me?

Without rating if good or not good.

Most Swiss do play only "International". if you do scratch you get an 19th century Cantonalist body. They are boring, but you can rely on their tediousness.
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