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  #41  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:40
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Dear Celia,

I must say I'm quite impressed by the quality of feedback and customer care provided here, and hopefully elsewhere too. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and am quite positive that this has brought you considerable additional and well-deserved business, as will your english web site version once it comes online.

However, the fees charged by Nettoshop for paying by credit card are illegal since August last year. At that time an agreement between the Wettbewerbskommission and the credit card industry (EVR III), became effective, it outlaws this kind of additional fees. By extension, the same probably applies to cash payments as well as all other forms.

SIX Group is one of the biggest companies in handling the backoffice work for credit card payments in Switzerland. SIX Group spokesperson Jürg Schneider is quoted as follows in this srf.ch article:
"Wir begrüssen die klare Haltung der Kartenfirmen. Unsere Aufgabe ist es, diese Regeln, insbesondere das Verbot von Zuschlägen bei unseren Vertragspartnern durchzusetzen.". The article goes on saying that not respecting such a ban can even lead to a license cancellation. It seems reasonable to assume that the backoffice agents won't take complaints lightly.

This raises several questions:
- why is Nettoshop still levying these illegal surcharges?
- will customers you've had since august 1st last year be able to reclaim these illegal surcharges?
- by when will you remove these illegal fees?

Sincerely
Urs
Hi Urs

Thank you for your feedback - I'm happy to help here and we're working hard on our english content for providing it to you

Regarding the fees, the statement is incorrect like that: The agreement from August 2015 establishes that it's forbidden to discriminate the payment method "credit card" itself compared to the other payment methods. As a result of this agreement we reduced the fee for credit cards from 1.9% to 1.6% in August 2015 and adjusted it to the other payment methods we provide. This 1.6% are regarded as a "instant processing fee" as written on our page.

We will try to reduce the fee continuously but if we would reduce it to 0.0% immediately we couldn't keep the product prices at a low level. I hope I can help with this information and I wish you a nice afternoon.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #42  
Old 23.08.2016, 15:50
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

hu-hu!
It's like "Microspot.ch" who have a FREE shipping service. Which has been diplomatically renamed "surcharge for small orders" (+8.90chf if the order is less than 49chf).

So it's not a XXX Fee because a XXX fee is illegal but a "YYY" Fee.
I love doing business here, always one sided relationship.
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  #43  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:17
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

As you say CC payments may not be discriminated against. Prepayment as well as payment upon pickup with debit card bears no surcharge. This is a clear breach of the regulation, your reply confirms that you're fully aware.

Renaming it "instant processing fee" is nothing but a smokescreen. Currently the average charge by the CC issuers is 0.7%. A comany such as yours, who predominantly sell big-ticket items, pays less than that, and yet you charge 250% of that. I fail to see how you think this will pass scrutiny.
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  #44  
Old 23.08.2016, 16:52
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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hu-hu!
It's like "Microspot.ch" who have a FREE shipping service. Which has been diplomatically renamed "surcharge for small orders" (+8.90chf if the order is less than 49chf).

So it's not a XXX Fee because a XXX fee is illegal but a "YYY" Fee.
I love doing business here, always one sided relationship.
Hi CorsebouTheReturn

I don't know how other companies handle this but we provide free delivery for every product furthermore and we didn't introduce new surcharges. We only reduced the credit card fee from 1.9% to 1.6% with no further impact.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #45  
Old 23.08.2016, 17:11
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Hi CorsebouTheReturn

I don't know how other companies handle this but we provide free delivery for every product furthermore and we didn't introduce new surcharges. We only reduced the credit card fee from 1.9% to 1.6% with no further impact.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
Thanks Celia, I understand it's your profession to defend your business.

My comment is about how the fee is presented.
It's not a "Credit card fee surcharge" (allegedly illegal) but a "instant processing fee" (smoke screen).

Sadly, it seems a common practice in Swiss online retailers to call a cat a "small feline mammal" and then pretend to be doing the right thing.

Anyway, i'm out-
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  #46  
Old 23.08.2016, 17:23
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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As you say CC payments may not be discriminated against. Prepayment as well as payment upon pickup with debit card bears no surcharge. This is a clear breach of the regulation, your reply confirms that you're fully aware.

Renaming it "instant processing fee" is nothing but a smokescreen. Currently the average charge by the CC issuers is 0.7%. A comany such as yours, who predominantly sell big-ticket items, pays less than that, and yet you charge 250% of that. I fail to see how you think this will pass scrutiny.
Hi Urs

We provide all payment methods equal with which we provide immediate order release (instant processing fee). With prepayment it takes at minimum 2 days until we process the payment and therefore prepare the order, the pickup in our stores also takes a few days until you can pick up your order in the store. I only have the information that we charge the MSC from the aquirer 1:1. The customer, however, is free to choose whether he wants to choose a payment method with or without a charge at any time.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #47  
Old 23.08.2016, 17:26
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Thanks Celia, I understand it's your profession to defend your business.

My comment is about how the fee is presented.
It's not a "Credit card fee surcharge" (allegedly illegal) but a "instant processing fee" (smoke screen).

Sadly, it seems a common practice in Swiss online retailers to call a cat a "small feline mammal" and then pretend to be doing the right thing.

Anyway, i'm out-
Hi CorsebouTheReturn

Thanks for the feedback - I will pass on your inputs once more but sadly I cannot do anymore in this case.

Best regards and have a nice evening,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #48  
Old 23.08.2016, 17:35
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Hi Urs

We provide all payment methods equal with which we provide immediate order release (instant processing fee). With prepayment it takes at minimum 2 days until we process the payment and therefore prepare the order, the pickup in our stores also takes a few days until you can pick up your order in the store. I only have the information that we charge the MSC from the aquirer 1:1. The customer, however, is free to choose whether he wants to choose a payment method with or without a charge at any time.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
Are you saying that it's an optional Expresszuschlag, to call it that? So a customer can opt out and if s/he does, order handling takes longer but that's the only difference?
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  #49  
Old 23.08.2016, 17:46
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

Celia for mod
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  #50  
Old 23.08.2016, 18:31
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Are you saying that it's an optional Expresszuschlag, to call it that? So a customer can opt out and if s/he does, order handling takes longer but that's the only difference?
Theoretically yes - We cannot speed up the prepaiement process because we have to wait for the money transfer between the bank accounts and the update in our accountancy which as we know sometimes can take a while, especially at holidays If everything goes well it's only a small delay. For the pickup at our store we mostly need to transport the products to our showroom after the order because we only have a small amount of products there so it's also a bit delayed. With the instant processing fee we can guarantee that the order is processed immediately because we already received the full amount and can proceed instantly. But it is a fact, we have currently the given situation with the surcharges but we're working to get rid of it with as little impact on the customers as possible!

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #51  
Old 23.08.2016, 18:32
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Celia for mod
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  #52  
Old 23.08.2016, 18:36
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

I will make "Feierabend" for today but I just wanted to say: I definitely hear you and I will forward it internally to guarantee you the best service as possible Have a nice evening everyone!
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  #53  
Old 23.08.2016, 19:55
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Hi Urs

Thank you for your feedback - I'm happy to help here and we're working hard on our english content for providing it to you

Regarding the fees, the statement is incorrect like that: The agreement from August 2015 establishes that it's forbidden to discriminate the payment method "credit card" itself compared to the other payment methods. As a result of this agreement we reduced the fee for credit cards from 1.9% to 1.6% in August 2015 and adjusted it to the other payment methods we provide. This 1.6% are regarded as a "instant processing fee" as written on our page.

We will try to reduce the fee continuously but if we would reduce it to 0.0% immediately we couldn't keep the product prices at a low level. I hope I can help with this information and I wish you a nice afternoon.

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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Dear Celia,

I must say I'm quite impressed by the quality of feedback and customer care provided here, and hopefully elsewhere too. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and am quite positive that this has brought you considerable additional and well-deserved business, as will your english web site version once it comes online.

However, the fees charged by Nettoshop for paying by credit card are illegal since August last year. At that time an agreement between the Wettbewerbskommission and the credit card industry (EVR III), became effective, it outlaws this kind of additional fees. By extension, the same probably applies to cash payments as well as all other forms.

SIX Group is one of the biggest companies in handling the backoffice work for credit card payments in Switzerland. SIX Group spokesperson Jürg Schneider is quoted as follows in this srf.ch article:
"Wir begrüssen die klare Haltung der Kartenfirmen. Unsere Aufgabe ist es, diese Regeln, insbesondere das Verbot von Zuschlägen bei unseren Vertragspartnern durchzusetzen.". The article goes on saying that not respecting such a ban can even lead to a license cancellation. It seems reasonable to assume that the backoffice agents won't take complaints lightly.

This raises several questions:
- why is Nettoshop still levying these illegal surcharges?
- will customers you've had since august 1st last year be able to reclaim these illegal surcharges?
- by when will you remove these illegal fees?

Sincerely
Urs
According to this 20min article from today,


surcharges for credit cards remain permissible IF they are not higher than surcharges for other payment methods.
"Es geht dabei um die sogenannte Nicht-Diskriminierungsklausel, die Kreditkartenfirmen wie Mastercard oder Visa seit vergangenem Jahr festschreiben können. Die Klausel hält fest, dass Zahlungen per Kreditkarte nicht teurer sein dürfen, als wenn sie mit den übrigen Zahlungsmitteln getätigt werden. Kreditkartengebühren an sich hat die Weko aber nicht verboten."

Translation: "It's about the Non-Discrimination clause which credit card firms can use since last year. The clause states that payments by credit card are not allowed to be more expensive as payments by other means. The Weko did not prohibit credit card fees as such, though."

Looking at Nettoshop's payment methods, it shows that
- all credit cards incur surcharges of 1.6%
- prepayment and payment on pickup in Volketswil, SG and Härkingen incur no surcharge
- payment on pickup at Sieber incurs a surcharge of CHF 95.-
- Nachnahme (cash on delivery) incurs a surcharge of CHF 35.-/95.-.
- Paypal incurs a surcharge of 1.9%.

This looks like the lowest amount of surcharge for a payment method is CHF 0.-, since prepayment is possible at no extra cost to the customer.
Since product prices don't change depending on the payment method chosen, I deduce that, at this point in time, nettoshop is charging 1.6% more if one pays by credit card rather than choosing the prepayment option.

This, for me, is a reason to not shop with them until the fees are changed. Either the lowest surcharge for all payment methods (including prepayment) go up to at least 1.6% with credit card payment surcharges remaining the same, or the credit card surcharges are dropped to 0.-.
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  #54  
Old 23.08.2016, 20:08
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

I bought a couple of large ticket items and the whole business from payment to delivery was very smooth.

My only problem was self inflicted in that I chose to dispose of the old models myself but could not close the boot lid; luckily a kind Swiss neighbour drove by in his SUV and volunteered to take the stuff - even then there was only a few mm clearance

Of course I welcome any possibility to get fees back

The other problem was I had to drink a lot of whisky with the neighbour later
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  #55  
Old 24.08.2016, 09:05
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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According to this 20min article from today,


surcharges for credit cards remain permissible IF they are not higher than surcharges for other payment methods.
"Es geht dabei um die sogenannte Nicht-Diskriminierungsklausel, die Kreditkartenfirmen wie Mastercard oder Visa seit vergangenem Jahr festschreiben können. Die Klausel hält fest, dass Zahlungen per Kreditkarte nicht teurer sein dürfen, als wenn sie mit den übrigen Zahlungsmitteln getätigt werden. Kreditkartengebühren an sich hat die Weko aber nicht verboten."

Translation: "It's about the Non-Discrimination clause which credit card firms can use since last year. The clause states that payments by credit card are not allowed to be more expensive as payments by other means. The Weko did not prohibit credit card fees as such, though."

Looking at Nettoshop's payment methods, it shows that
- all credit cards incur surcharges of 1.6%
- prepayment and payment on pickup in Volketswil, SG and Härkingen incur no surcharge
- payment on pickup at Sieber incurs a surcharge of CHF 95.-
- Nachnahme (cash on delivery) incurs a surcharge of CHF 35.-/95.-.
- Paypal incurs a surcharge of 1.9%.

This looks like the lowest amount of surcharge for a payment method is CHF 0.-, since prepayment is possible at no extra cost to the customer.
Since product prices don't change depending on the payment method chosen, I deduce that, at this point in time, nettoshop is charging 1.6% more if one pays by credit card rather than choosing the prepayment option.

This, for me, is a reason to not shop with them until the fees are changed. Either the lowest surcharge for all payment methods (including prepayment) go up to at least 1.6% with credit card payment surcharges remaining the same, or the credit card surcharges are dropped to 0.-.
Hi glowjupiter

Thank you for your feedback. As written before we separate between payment methods with immediate order processing (credit card, paypal, etc.) and payment methods with delayed order processing (prepayment, pick-up etc.) - So the payment methods with immediate order processing are equal and on the same "level". Within this payment methods it is not allowed to discriminate the credit card (only the credit card) which is not the case in our shop - For example you're better going with credit card than with PayPal.

Hope I helped with this answer and I would be happy to welcome you as a satisfied customer by us despite the fees for the credit card

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #56  
Old 24.08.2016, 09:06
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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I bought a couple of large ticket items and the whole business from payment to delivery was very smooth.

My only problem was self inflicted in that I chose to dispose of the old models myself but could not close the boot lid; luckily a kind Swiss neighbour drove by in his SUV and volunteered to take the stuff - even then there was only a few mm clearance

Of course I welcome any possibility to get fees back

The other problem was I had to drink a lot of whisky with the neighbour later
Hi marton

Thank you for your positive feedback, happy to hear that! Sadly I cannot refund the fees but I hope you will consider our shop regardless of that the next time!

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
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  #57  
Old 24.08.2016, 09:11
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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This, for me, is a reason to not shop with them until the fees are changed. Either the lowest surcharge for all payment methods (including prepayment) go up to at least 1.6% with credit card payment surcharges remaining the same, or the credit card surcharges are dropped to 0.-.
That is one possibility, but it may be more effective to reclaim the surcharges. This costs time and effort aka money, sooner or later these costs will be enough of an incentive for the various market players to force the retailers to drop the surcharges.
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Old 24.08.2016, 11:01
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Re: Nettoshop is the worst mail order company at least IMHO!

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Hi glowjupiter

Thank you for your feedback. As written before we separate between payment methods with immediate order processing (credit card, paypal, etc.) and payment methods with delayed order processing (prepayment, pick-up etc.) - So the payment methods with immediate order processing are equal and on the same "level". Within this payment methods it is not allowed to discriminate the credit card (only the credit card) which is not the case in our shop - For example you're better going with credit card than with PayPal.

Hope I helped with this answer and I would be happy to welcome you as a satisfied customer by us despite the fees for the credit card

Best regards,
Celia
Team nettoshop.ch
Processing times are irrelevant to me, surcharges are not. So I will be looking elsewhere. Thanks anyway for your post.
Quote:
hält fest, dass Zahlungen per Kreditkarte nicht teurer sein dürfen, als wenn sie mit den übrigen Zahlungsmitteln getätigt
(Bolding by me)

Zahlungsmittel (payment methods) in my eyes encompass all in equal measure - credit card, prepayment, paypal etc. etc.
From the way the article I quoted above is written, I deduce that none of the payment methods (not: none of the credit card payment methods, or the article would say so) should incur higher surcharges than the credit card payment method.

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Dear Celia,

...

SIX Group is one of the biggest companies in handling the backoffice work for credit card payments in Switzerland. SIX Group spokesperson Jürg Schneider is quoted as follows in this srf.ch article:
UM, the slideshow at the bottom of this article shows the (current?) rates online shops seem to charge.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 24.08.2016 at 14:08.
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