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  #241  
Old 24.10.2009, 22:25
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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...then return to their countries and establish businesses exporting stuff to Switzerland.
They will find it hard to compete with heavily subsidized Swiss crops... amazing Scheiße! Let the markets work and stop the Hansel and Gretel farmland fairy tale.
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  #242  
Old 24.10.2009, 23:27
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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They will find it hard to compete with heavily subsidized Swiss crops... amazing Scheiße! Let the markets work and stop the Hansel and Gretel farmland fairy tale.
They do not find it hard. First of all, Migros and Coop heavily import agricultural goods from exactly such companies in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, Tunisia. And until quite recently, only "ethnic" shops had suppliers in SriLanka, Lebanon, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, etc. But now, Coop also has started in this sector. Go to the nearest Coop or Migros and look closely at the agric... products on sale and you will see that a lot is imported, for instance green beans from Egypt, asparagus from China, pears from Italy, beef from Poland, lamb from New Zealand, dates from Tunisia/Algeria/Iran etc.
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  #243  
Old 25.10.2009, 10:54
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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I can't recall them on Mercs but I know a couple of them driving Range Rovers. Many of them are impresarios now, supervising temporary foreign cheap labour. Just look at the fields and tell me if those guys picking or planting stuff are Swiss. Of course they aren't! The Swiss, is a guy somewhere in a corner supervising that the foreigners do their hourly paid job.

Is this bad? Yes, in fact it is. Those guys should be in their countries planting their fields and then exporting their stuff to countries like Switzerland.
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Only bad for the moment. Many of those "supervised" foreigners earn the needed money, learn about modern things, then return to their countries and establish businesses exporting stuff to Switzerland. Many others of those "supervised" foreigners move up and establish companies inside Switzerland and import goods from their homelands.

There a few decades ago was a student from the Kosovo province of Yugoslavia at the Zurich University. The man is now Prime Minister of the Republic of Kosovo. Any guess who his prime city of contact in the "West" is now ?

Mr Blocher for decades made it possible for young people from Egypt and India to work in premises of EMS Chemie (etc) in Switzerland as "Volontaire" at slave wages. The old ...... of course profited most. But A) the wages were lots of money in Egypt and India, B) they learnt a lot while being there and C) to have worked in an industrial company is a good reference in both countries overthere.

I find this very interesting. Is there a scheme where agricultural workers from non-EU countries can get work permits to labour on Swiss farms?

This would have a major impact on my interpretation of the legislation covering the support of the agri-economy and (literal translation) "the preservation of the peasant population".

Allowing the farmers access to cheap labour in this way would be another subsidy in kind and probably doesn't show in the world classification tables.

However, locally, the guys in the fields are the farmers, their wives, and their kids.
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  #244  
Old 25.10.2009, 13:31
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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I find this very interesting. Is there a scheme where agricultural workers from non-EU countries can get work permits to labour on Swiss farms?

This would have a major impact on my interpretation of the legislation covering the support of the agri-economy and (literal translation) "the preservation of the peasant population".

Allowing the farmers access to cheap labour in this way would be another subsidy in kind and probably doesn't show in the world classification tables.

However, locally, the guys in the fields are the farmers, their wives, and their kids.
Switzerland first of all is open to agro-workers from EU-countries. But if a farmer can show that he does not get needed workforce inside EU/EFTA, he will get a permission to employ people from outside the EU/EFTA zone. Another aspect is that industrial companies, companies in services like airlines and gastronomy-companies, but also agricultural co-operatives, can employ "Volontäre" on a temporary basis. By stretching such "Volontär-Kontrakte" out, the Volontäre will get a permit to stay on, and gradually move up by category until reaching the permit for permanent stay (employment included) . Many Egyptians have done this via Mövenpick Egypt, quite successfully.
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  #245  
Old 25.10.2009, 13:45
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Switzerland first of all is open to agro-workers from EU-countries. But if a farmer can show that he does not get needed workforce inside EU/EFTA, he will get a permission to employ people from outside the EU/EFTA zone. Another aspect is that industrial companies, companies in services like airlines and gastronomy-companies, but also agricultural co-operatives, can employ "Volontäre" on a temporary basis. By stretching such "Volontär-Kontrakte" out, the Volontäre will get a permit to stay on, and gradually move up by category until reaching the permit for permanent stay (employment included) . Many Egyptians have done this via Mövenpick Egypt, quite successfully.
ok, combined with the previous few posts in the thread, this suggests that EU agriworkers are coming to Switzerland to learn the farming methods to take back to their own countries - frankly ridiculous considering Switzerlands extremely old fashioned methods, round these parts a tractor is a novelty .

Assuming this doesn't happen then the farmers are employing non-eu workers. Figures on this must be available - I've not found anything to suggest it happens yet but then it's a slow job grazing legislation and stats in a foreign language .

Finally we have Egyptions doing a sort of VSO into Switzerland. I do know of a few asylum seekers (not from Egypt) working on a voluntary basis but didn't realise a more widespread scheme was out there. Interesting.

I'll just be popping out now to find a few Egyption volunteers - do I order the RangeRover now or wait until the profits start rolling in ?
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  #246  
Old 25.10.2009, 15:58
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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ok, combined with the previous few posts in the thread, this suggests that EU agriworkers are coming to Switzerland to learn the farming methods to take back to their own countries - frankly ridiculous considering Switzerlands extremely old fashioned methods, round these parts a tractor is a novelty .

Assuming this doesn't happen then the farmers are employing non-eu workers. Figures on this must be available - I've not found anything to suggest it happens yet but then it's a slow job grazing legislation and stats in a foreign language .

Finally we have Egyptions doing a sort of VSO into Switzerland. I do know of a few asylum seekers (not from Egypt) working on a voluntary basis but didn't realise a more widespread scheme was out there. Interesting.

I'll just be popping out now to find a few Egyption volunteers - do I order the RangeRover now or wait until the profits start rolling in ?
<> that something which was common place in rural Switzerland (Luzerner Hinterland, Schaffhausener Farmland, Agriculture Vaudois, Agriculture Neuchâtelois) of the 1950ies in your "place" is a novelty, is rather surprising

<> I cannot have figures about this, and in my view the agricultural sector which employs far less than 10% of the workforce in this country will only account for some 3 to 6 % of the total in question

<> "Volontäre" have nothing to do with refugees but are people who work in Swiss companies "overseas" and get the chance to work in Switzerland to get knowledge about methods and realities in Switzerland, and of course use that way to get into Switzerland on a permanent basis. I have advised people between Casablanca and Sana'a to do so rather than to slip into Europe as "illegals". And it in fact does work ! Many successful businessmen in fact did it that way.

<> If you are in airfreight and do bookings via ATC Aviation, you deal with a company which was founded by Ravi Taneja, the son of a Bombay restaurant owner. R.T. got into ZRH via Air India, worked at Air India until getting his first permit, worked in one or two forwarding agencies and also at Aerolineas Argentinas before establishing ATC Aviation, then brought several airlines into Zurich. The man also established "Ravi's Indian Cuisine", an Indian restaurant in Zürich.

<> If you are in air travel, you may learn about Prof Dr Amin, active at the Universities of Cairo and Zurich and owner of Amin Travel, an amazing personality, and always interesting to contact.

<> If you are interested in Arab language or are in need of an Arabic interpreter at the Cantonal Police of Zurich you may make the acquaintance of Fawzi Khalil, who as a Palestinian from Gaza, who studied in Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq, via Turkey, Bulgaria, Poland, GDR and Austria finally made it to Zurich ("lost" his papers on the Rhein-Brücke from Vorarlberg to SG/CH) .

<> go to the Mövenpick Airport in Glattbrugg for eating and pay attention to the nationality of the waiters and the receptionists. Quite many of them are Egyptians who before worked at Mövenpick Egypt .
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  #247  
Old 20.12.2009, 11:09
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

May I nudge this thread back to prices ?


I'm interviewing next week for an IT contract in Zurich. I'm really worried about the costs there cancelling out the attractive rate.

My question: Is anything a bargain in Zurich/Switzerland ? The national GA looks like great value to me as I'd use the chance to see the country on many weekends. Apart from that all I see is mark-ups.

Here in Germany for example I'd say supermarkets, beer, local transport, football tickets are modestly priced.
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  #248  
Old 20.12.2009, 11:31
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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My question: Is anything a bargain in Zurich/Switzerland ? The national GA looks like great value to me as I'd use the chance to see the country on many weekends. Apart from that all I see is mark-ups.

Here in Germany for example I'd say supermarkets, beer, local transport, football tickets are modestly priced.
Beer is cheaper here - or at least "Lagerbier hell" type beer is - the cheap stuff can be had for as little as CHF0.50 for a 500ml bottle/can. Also wine is not at all bad - usually less than Germany. Spirits are heavily taxed and so cost in general the same as Germany.

General supermarket stuff can be cheaper than Germany with the caveat that anything from a non-German speaking country (at least in the German speaking part of Switzerland) tends to be very expensive due to a mixture of import duties and profiteering from the shops (very little genuine competition). As an example the hardly luxury item of a can of Heinz baked beans costs CHF 2.80 in the Coop - yes that is for one can!

The problem with a lot of the British imported goods is that they have not altered in price in line with the exchange rate. e.g. British imports are charged at the same price now with the franc at c. CHF 1.70 to the GBP as when the rate was 2.50.

All in though you need to consider lower tax rates (albeit offset by higher rents and mandatory health insurance payments) and higher pay.
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  #249  
Old 20.12.2009, 11:39
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

In order not to compare apples with pears, could you please first explain what a bargain is for you?
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  #250  
Old 31.12.2009, 04:52
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

from 2010 Cassis de Dijon is coming into force - http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index/Re...ml?cid=7450256

do you think things will change quickly?

also, i think things are not so dramatic as they were some time ago...

good quality cooking oil in cheap Poland costs ~2 chf

here http://lidl.ch/cps/rde/xchg/lidl_ch/.../4182_7851.htm 2.49 in aktion, but still ... and assuming it's quality is good of course... but let's assume so... and cooking oil is often given as an example together with meat and vegetables of a commodity that is extremely overpriced in CH. (often quoted in guides etc.)

prices really going down fast already?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index/Mi...ml?cid=7974942

according to Migros boss yes... maybe after Cassis, things will even speed up...
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  #251  
Old 31.12.2009, 11:55
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

I'd happily take the price of "Benzin" here in Switzerland any day over the price in Germany... Driving around Germany is enough to bankrupt a person...
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  #252  
Old 31.12.2009, 14:45
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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I'd happily take the price of "Benzin" here in Switzerland any day over the price in Germany... Driving around Germany is enough to bankrupt a person...
of course, but what % of your monthly budget is spent on gasoline compared to for example food or rent ?

also taxes also aren't that low compared to germany if you take into account health costs... my situation in germany at the biggining was that i was working, my wife was not. She got free health insurance and i paid few hundreds euro less taxes every month only because i was married. my effective tax rate was ~30%, here it is pretty much the same if you consider all health costs one has to cover for 2 people.

to be fair, usually it's not 30% because i just don't go to doctor that often, but if i did, it would be pretty much the same.
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  #253  
Old 31.12.2009, 18:32
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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/Migros_boss_attacks_Aldi_and_Lidl_.html?cid=797494 2

according to Migros boss yes... maybe after Cassis, things will even speed up...
the Migros boss made three mistakes :
- he hopelessly exaggerated
- he became aggressive in a very bad way (lack of style)
- he forgot (or never knew) that HIS arguments were exactly those brought up against Migros founder Gottlieb Duttweiler and Migros from the beginning until the 1950ies.

In the days before Conforama, TopTip and others started to offer furniture at low tariffs, furniture has been two to four times as expensive as now but only marginally better. MiCasa, the Migros subsidiary then was one of the driving forces. Furniture trade in Switzerland has not collapsed. And the employees of the budget furniture trade do not depend on social welfare

In short, the man has made a fool of himself
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  #254  
Old 31.12.2009, 18:35
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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I'd happily take the price of "Benzin" here in Switzerland any day over the price in Germany... Driving around Germany is enough to bankrupt a person...
There of course are some things like petrol, stationary and photo/TV/computer equipment which are cheaper in Switzerland than in Germany, but the general average is cheaper in Germany. But these are "rules of the thumb" and are not always and in every case correct.
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  #255  
Old 31.12.2009, 18:45
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

And one other item: we always buy our bread in CH. So much cheaper and better. French loaves tend generally to be full of large holes!
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  #256  
Old 31.12.2009, 19:12
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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In the days before Conforama, TopTip and others started to offer furniture at low tariffs, furniture has been two to four times as expensive as now but only marginally better. MiCasa, the Migros subsidiary then was one of the driving forces. Furniture trade in Switzerland has not collapsed. And the employees of the budget furniture trade do not depend on social welfare
Theoretically furniture and other vatable items should be 10% cheaper in Switzerland than Germany and France because of the VAT difference and most of the stuff if not made in Switzerland is probably sourced from China or some other developing country with cheap labour.

However, I gather the costs of running a business in Switzerland is higher because the wages are higher.

None of the expats on here seem to be complaining that they are earning too much working in Switzerland and in fact I am seeing threads asking if it is possible to live on an income of CH 300,000 per annum etc.

I am sure that most of the expats on here would agree that they are living in a beautiful clean safe and peaceful country and this may also have been the reason that they have moved to Switzerland.
You might like to go into the mountains and see the cows with their bells ringing, goats and sheep wandering around; farmers on small tractors in order to farm the steep hills. All this has a substancial cost compared to a UK farms with huge flat fields and enormous tractors and a hurd of 300 cows in a large field next to a automated milking building.
I personally think that the Swiss way of life needs preserving/protecting to a certain extend and there have to be subsidies for certain trades/bsuinesses. I also think that there should be some kind of loyalty to the people of the country we live in. I can see that the Swiss items in the supermarket for instance do prominently state that they are grown in Switzerland when they are.

I actually try to buy Swiss products in Switzerland because I feel I kind of have an obligation to; I even try to buy Ticino products as I live in that region until the time I believe that the Swiss are taking advantage of this because they think they can.
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  #257  
Old 31.12.2009, 19:16
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Theoretically furniture and other vatable items should be 10% cheaper in Switzerland than Germany and France because of the VAT difference and most of the stuff if not made in Switzerland is probably sourced from China or some other developing country with cheap labour.

However, I gather the costs of running a business in Switzerland is higher because the wages are higher.

None of the expats on here seem to be complaining that they are earning too much working in Switzerland and in fact I am seeing threads asking if it is possible to live on an income of CH 300,000 per annum etc.

I am sure that most of the expats on here would agree that they are living in a beautiful clean safe and peaceful country and this may also have been the reason that they have moved to Switzerland.
You might like to go into the mountains and see the cows with their bells ringing, goats and sheep wandering around; farmers on small tractors in order to farm the steep hills. All this has a substancial cost compared to a UK farms with huge flat fields and enormous tractors and a hurd of 300 cows in a large field next to a automated milking building.
I personally think that the Swiss way of life needs preserving/protecting to a certain extend and there have to be subsidies for certain trades/bsuinesses. I also think that there should be some kind of loyalty to the people of the country we live in. I can see that the Swiss items in the supermarket for instance do prominently state that they are grown in Switzerland when they are.

I actually try to buy Swiss products in Switzerland because I feel I kind of have an obligation to; I even try to buy Ticino products as I live in that region until the time I believe that the Swiss are taking advantage of this because they think they can.
And do you really think the milk that you are drinking is from the goats and cows on the steep hill with the bell dangling from their neck? In order for us to survive, we need those big farms with the automated milking machine...otherwise we would pay 56 Francs per liter of Milk.
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  #258  
Old 31.12.2009, 19:37
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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And do you really think the milk that you are drinking is from the goats and cows on the steep hill with the bell dangling from their neck? In order for us to survive, we need those big farms with the automated milking machine...otherwise we would pay 56 Francs per liter of Milk.
oh hell, another contradiction looming ! I, for commercial reasons, am in favour of the "terrifying" big farms with automated milking machines, but support any step to make "life" for the poor animals at least a tiny bit easier. You can tell my a hypocrite, but I regard myself as a critical realist with some idealist notions
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Old 02.01.2010, 17:44
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

Electric toothbrush heads, Germany 10Euro, Switz 30Sfr
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Old 02.01.2010, 19:50
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

i just had another one this morning. went to buy a pair of scissors: 28 CHF.

28 CHF for a pair of scissors!

A pair of scissors!!!

*and they weren't even gold-plated
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