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  #781  
Old 25.06.2012, 17:41
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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It certainly IS!

Tom
Actually I find wine prices are quite reasonable here; especially imported wines.

Also big stores like Co-op & Denner often have good price offers.
For example @ Co-op " 20% off our entire range of white and rosé wines - this week only!"
Yes, this week!
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  #782  
Old 25.06.2012, 17:53
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Actually I find wine prices are quite reasonable here; especially imported wines.

Also big stores like Co-op & Denner often have good price offers.
For example @ Co-op " 20% off our entire range of white and rosé wines - this week only!"
Yes, this week!
Wine is very reasonably priced indeed, as are some electrical goods. And Gachnang Farm in Horgenberg want CHF 1.55/litre for their very nice, non-UHT milk, which I think is reasonable.
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  #783  
Old 25.06.2012, 23:12
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Swiss quality, high wages, low taxes, small market, high transport costs, high rent, blah blah blah blah blah.

Or the truth: rife protectionism and sheer greed.
A) protectionism ? Sure, exists. But it also exists in the USA and in case of the E.U.. and so does not explain anything
B) greed ? sure, exists. But also exists elsewhere. And so also does NOT explain anything
C) quality ? quality also exists elsewhere. And so, this does not explain anything either
D) high wages ? if you take all the costs, employees in urban areas in Germany cost more for their companies
-

No, the high real estate prices, and the three rather small markets are NOT bla-bla but reality

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True
You can see this with goods sold here where the importers did not know about the "rife protectionism and sheer greed" & actually sell the goods at similar prices to the rest of Europe.
But demagogues will NEVER accept your thesis

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If Swiss importers had drastically cut prices following the strengthening of the chf there would have been deflation followed by salary cuts. I guess that would be ok for some!
You simply forget that such importers would have gone bankrupt ! Yes, their ex-employees would have accepted lower salaries. The costs companies in Switzerland have are local costs in CHF. Add to this that quite many companies DID cut prices drastically, IF they had a chance to do so.

Very often, importers who are wholesalers but not retailers tried and try to keep their price-level up. In our company we right now have implemented steps reducing the "weight" of a particular salesman of such a company and to shift our purchases even more to a good trader in NJ/USA. Mad ? No, the dispatch to Miami is most moderate, and consolidated airfreight MIA-ZRH is acceptable. Customs duties are lower than ever so that only the VAT is to be considered.

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Well, the last I knew, wine isn't really a necessity (Forgive me, Dionysus! )

I am/was a middle-class American -- now living in CH -- and I only do my grocery shopping in Migros and Coop (where it seems most native Swiss also shop?). I also never stay in luxury hotels.

It seems that a lot of non-U.S. Americans have this misguided belief that all Americans live excessively. If they've only traveled to cities like NYC or base their opinions from television shows, etc., I guess I can maybe understand why they think that. But huge metropolitan cities (and the media) do not provide accurate representations of the typical American lifestyle. Because many, many Americans struggle to simply put food on the table or pay their rent and certainly do not live excessively.
I base my views on the USA on such topnotch cities like Houston, Buda, Tyler, Longview, Marshall, Shreveport, New Orleans, Myrtle Beach, Atlanta, etc And my relatives live in places like Houston, Buda, Tyler, Marshall, Shreveport, and either have never been in NYC or only on once-in-a-lifetime-visit.

If you mean that I want to say that Americans live excessively you simply have not understood me at all, not in any way ! What I found out is that many Americans do not trust "tourist-class" facilities in Europe.

You may have realized that many many Swiss (and other Europeans) struggle to simply put food on the table or pay their rent !

Last edited by 22 yards; 25.06.2012 at 23:57.
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  #784  
Old 25.06.2012, 23:39
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Well, I just arrived in the US yesterday (Danbury, CT), and was shocked to find many food items the same or more as in CH, for example $2.29 for an avocado (CHF 1.40-1.70), $13.99/lb. for Gruyere (CHF 15.00/kg for that which I brought with me), more than twice the price, beef filet $18.99/lb, about the same as I pay in CH. And veal is about twice the price here compared to CH!

Tom
Looking at the Safeway online store for Scottsdale, AZ (where I used to live), the only beef for close to $18.49/lb was high grade tenderloin filet at $18.99/lb.

The Coop equivalent is "Fine Foods Angus tenderloin", which comes in at $12.96/100g or 59 CHF/lb - so about 3x as much. Heck, even the "cheap" homebrand filet is $9/100g = $40/lb.

Avocadoes are $1 each.

The specific cheese you're talking about is going to be something of a niche product in the USA, so the comparison there is iffy at best. Something like cheddar is ~$4.50/lb.

Where were you shopping in CT ?
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  #785  
Old 25.06.2012, 23:44
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

Sort of wondering also where in CT those prices were. Agree that cheese is more expensive in US, especially those typically found here.
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  #786  
Old 25.06.2012, 23:45
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Actually I find wine prices are quite reasonable here; especially imported wines.

Also big stores like Co-op & Denner often have good price offers.
For example @ Co-op " 20% off our entire range of white and rosé wines - this week only!"
Yes, this week!
YES AND NO ! If you get one liter of red wine at COOP for CHF 1.95 (Montagne / Vino Rosso) it is unbelievable ! Sure, the two wines are not upper class wines but are decent "Tisch-Weine" . At the other hand, if you go to Konstanz, you can get a wide range of superb wines at low prices. And if you go to the "Ile Napoleon" south-east of Mulhouse, you get an unbelievable variety of wines at unbelievably low prices !
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  #787  
Old 26.06.2012, 00:08
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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A) protectionism ? Sure, exists. But it also exists in the USA and in case of the E.U.. and so does not explain anything
B) greed ? sure, exists. But also exists elsewhere. And so also does NOT explain anything
C) quality ? quality also exists elsewhere. And so, this does not explain anything either
D) high wages ? if you take all the costs, employees in urban areas in Germany cost more for their companies
-

No, the high real estate prices, and the three rather small markets are NOT bla-bla but reality
Wolli -- sorry, but: bullshit. Honestly, sometimes I think you're a persistent troll instead of just myopically über-Swiss.

Your tired old arguments about high rents and high transport costs just don't wash. You think Fribourg real estate prices are higher than in London? if you do, you seriously need to visit the UK again. You think it costs more to transport lamb fillets from New Zealand to Basel than to Weil am Rhein? No. It just costs a packet more to get the lamb across the border. That's due to PROTECTIONISM. You think the price of goods imported from Europe has fallen by 15%+? No. That's due to GREED.

Why did Carrefour fail here? KFC? Pizza Hut?

Please stop trotting out these fallacious pseudo-economic arguments. They just don't work. Face up to it, Switzerland is a small nation of cartels run for the benefit of a very select few.
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  #788  
Old 26.06.2012, 00:20
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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...
Please stop trotting out these fallacious pseudo-economic arguments. They just don't work. Face up to it, Switzerland is a small nation of cartels run for the benefit of a very select few.
Well, actually it's not that Swiss products cost such a lot more than abroad (exception made for real estate, but yes it depends also there; and cheese, chocolate, watches and other stuff cost less in CH than abroad),

but what is disturbing is that it's very often the same (or very similar) foreign product that is much more expensive.

But not because of Swiss greed, but because of the producers' greed. For not calling it price discrimination they use an importeur (i.e. themselves) in CH, double prices or reduce quantity and blame the general price level for it.
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  #789  
Old 26.06.2012, 05:27
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Where were you shopping in CT ?
Pretty much everywhere, same places I'd shop when I lived here.

18.99 was for generic tenderloin, Angus is 24.99/lb. (and when I said "filet", I specifically meant tenderloin)

I pay in Lugano CHF 42/kg for tenderloin, AZ and Zurich prices are of no interest to me.

I spend no less money here in the US than I do in CH for food, as some things are cheaper, and others more expensive.

Tom
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Old 26.06.2012, 05:29
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Sort of wondering also where in CT those prices were.
Pretty much anywhere.

Tom
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  #791  
Old 26.06.2012, 15:49
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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AZ and Zurich prices are of no interest to me.
Most Swiss live in or within 100 km of Zürich. Lugano prices are of no interest to them.
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  #792  
Old 26.06.2012, 23:02
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Your tired old arguments about high rents and high transport costs just don't wash. You think Fribourg real estate prices are higher than in London? if you do, you seriously need to visit the UK again. You think it costs more to transport lamb fillets from New Zealand to Basel than to Weil am Rhein? No. It just costs a packet more to get the lamb across the border. That's due to PROTECTIONISM. You think the price of goods imported from Europe has fallen by 15%+? No. That's due to GREED.
-
British Airways left its nice office in Bahnhofstrasse when the square-meter price exceeded Regent Street in London ! The trucking costs are high, for a variety of reasons, but high they are. The lamb filets served in Basel are served by companies who have to pay Swiss real estate prices.

Protectionism ? How ? and done by whom ? Your demagogery fails to show any kind of proof or any kind of evidence ?

From Europe ? Switzerland is IN THE CENTRE OF EUROPE and IS Europe

Costs, to say it again, are mostly caused by local realities

GREED ? greed of whom ? retailers who successfully managed to achieve lower prices on their shelves and there are many, DID succeed. And this shows what LiB repeatedly tried to explain (in vain I think) that too many old-fashioned folks over here simply fail to go with the time.

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Why did Carrefour fail here? KFC? Pizza Hut?
> Carrefour ? I once held that company in high regard. But since they in Switzerland joined forces with the MICE (Maus Frères) my appreciation for that company dropped. No wonder that such a company here finally went out of business by selling their business to the next available purchaser. I did never believe that there are so stupid people in Paris
> KFC ? KFC Switzerland was a Swiss company which not only went bankrupt but was found guilty of serious economic crime ! They had a nice outlet on Bahnhofplatz just accross from where is now COOP Bahnhofbrücke. Greed ? NO, it was clearly economic crime ! KFC should open up outlets in Hohentengen and Konstanz, where they would be full of Swiss customers.
> Pizza Hut ? I just found the following
--
Das erste Pizza-Hut-Restaurant wurde in der Schweiz 1988 eröffnet. Der Höchststand betrug zehn Filialen. Der Umsatz betrug 2004 rund 10 Mio. Franken. Mit dem Verkauf von drei Restaurants in Bern und Rickenbach zum Jahresbeginn 2004 wurde das Ende von Pizza Hut Schweiz eingeläutet, das sich zu diesem Zeitpunkt in Nachlassstundung befand. Im November 2004 folgte der Konkurs. Ab dem 25. November 2004 waren alle sechs verbleibenden Filialen geschlossen; die rund 100 Mitarbeiter wurden entlassen.
-------------------------
-
They here found the competition of an extreme lot of Italian restaurants, some of them excellent, some of them simply snobbist, some of them relatively cheap, but most of them either on the same level or superior to Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut simply failed to capture the market.
--
<> In all three cases, there were neither laws nor regulations against them. KFC is a particular point as it included intra-Swiss economic crime and a scandal which was highly covered in the media.

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Please stop trotting out these fallacious pseudo-economic arguments. They just don't work. Face up to it, Switzerland is a small nation of cartels run for the benefit of a very select few.
-
> a nation of cartels ? evidence please --- names please -- explanations please
> that capitalism is run for the benefit of a very few was already found out by Mr Karl Marx
> cartels are in action in most countries, most unfortunately. And so, this point does NOT explain anything

SO, please stop' trotting out those fallacious pseudo-economic arguments in a demagogic way
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Old 26.06.2012, 23:09
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Most Swiss live in or within 100 km of Zürich. Lugano prices are of no interest to them.
This is utter rubbish. If you are in Lugano (etc) in most times of the year, you can see so many ZH-numbered cars all around that you will realize that the Ticino is "überfremdet" by Zürcher people. Actually numerous old-age ZH people have permanent or temporary holiday homes in Ticino. And weekend excursions to Ticino are a most usual thing in Zürich. And quite many Zürcher go shopping in Ticino ! Those prices ARE OF HEAVY interest to "them". And by "them" I mean people here and not some incredibly overpaid ..........
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Old 26.06.2012, 23:11
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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British Airways left its nice office in Bahnhofstrasse when the square-meter price exceeded Regent Street in London ! The trucking costs are high, for a variety of reasons, but high they are. The lamb filets served in Basel are served by companies who have to pay Swiss real estate prices.

Protectionism ? How ? and done by whom ? Your demagogery fails to show any kind of proof or any kind of evidence ?

From Europe ? Switzerland is IN THE CENTRE OF EUROPE and IS Europe

Costs, to say it again, are mostly caused by local realities

GREED ? greed of whom ? retailers who successfully managed to achieve lower prices on their shelves and there are many, DID succeed. And this shows what LiB repeatedly tried to explain (in vain I think) that too many old-fashioned folks over here simply fail to go with the time.


> Carrefour ? I once held that company in high regard. But since they in Switzerland joined forces with the MICE (Maus Frères) my appreciation for that company dropped. No wonder that such a company here finally went out of business by selling their business to the next available purchaser. I did never believe that there are so stupid people in Paris
> KFC ? KFC Switzerland was a Swiss company which not only went bankrupt but was found guilty of serious economic crime ! They had a nice outlet on Bahnhofplatz just accross from where is now COOP Bahnhofbrücke. Greed ? NO, it was clearly economic crime ! KFC should open up outlets in Hohentengen and Konstanz, where they would be full of Swiss customers.
> Pizza Hut ? I just found the following
--
Das erste Pizza-Hut-Restaurant wurde in der Schweiz 1988 eröffnet. Der Höchststand betrug zehn Filialen. Der Umsatz betrug 2004 rund 10 Mio. Franken. Mit dem Verkauf von drei Restaurants in Bern und Rickenbach zum Jahresbeginn 2004 wurde das Ende von Pizza Hut Schweiz eingeläutet, das sich zu diesem Zeitpunkt in Nachlassstundung befand. Im November 2004 folgte der Konkurs. Ab dem 25. November 2004 waren alle sechs verbleibenden Filialen geschlossen; die rund 100 Mitarbeiter wurden entlassen.
-------------------------
-
They here found the competition of an extreme lot of Italian restaurants, some of them excellent, some of them simply snobbist, some of them relatively cheap, but most of them either on the same level or superior to Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut simply failed to capture the market.
--
<> In all three cases, there were neither laws nor regulations against them. KFC is a particular point as it included intra-Swiss economic crime and a scandal which was highly covered in the media.


-
> a nation of cartels ? evidence please --- names please -- explanations please
> that capitalism is run for the benefit of a very few was already found out by Mr Karl Marx
> cartels are in action in most countries, most unfortunately. And so, this point does NOT explain anything

SO, please stop' trotting out those fallacious pseudo-economic arguments in a demagogic way
All of this fails to explain the reason/ability that many companies/products sell at equal or lower prices than EU, for example, PCs, TVs, cameras & other electronic goods.
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Old 26.06.2012, 23:47
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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All of this fails to explain the reason/ability that many companies/products sell at equal or lower prices than EU, for example, PCs, TVs, cameras & other electronic goods.
A) Switzerland NEVER had to take over the limitations of the EU against imports from East Asia
B) Switzerland has some quite favourable treaties with some East Asian countries. This means that also specific foodstuff are fairly cheap here
C) Switzerland since the 1960ies allowed the importation of SPARES for Japanese and Korean cars, when this was hindered inside the EU. This was why some Swiss companies became the European centres of some East Asian companies
C2) a MediaMarkt chap in Donaueschingen I had on the phone a decade ago explained me this in regard to his stuff --- if you buy a TVset, buy the TVset in Switzerland but the furniture in Germany. It is the cheapest variety
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Old 26.06.2012, 23:56
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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A) Switzerland NEVER had to take over the limitations of the EU against imports from East Asia
B) Switzerland has some quite favourable treaties with some East Asian countries. This means that also specific foodstuff are fairly cheap here
C) Switzerland since the 1960ies allowed the importation of SPARES for Japanese and Korean cars, when this was hindered inside the EU. This was why some Swiss companies became the European centres of some East Asian companies
C2) a MediaMarkt chap in Donaueschingen I had on the phone a decade ago explained me this in regard to his stuff --- if you buy a TVset, buy the TVset in Switzerland but the furniture in Germany. It is the cheapest variety
Eventually we get to the key point.

The key & important & only factor is the import price.

All the other stuff about salaries, rentals, market size etc. is bullsh*t
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Old 27.06.2012, 05:07
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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It certainly IS!

Tom
Not only is it a necessity, but it is also a great deal.

One of the things I liked best about CH was the local vintages available at the COOP every day. And they were better and cheaper than what I can get here in Saint Louis, Missouri, USA.

Seriously, I really miss the wine from the Cote.
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Old 27.06.2012, 10:23
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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This is utter rubbish. If you are in Lugano (etc) in most times of the year, you can see so many ZH-numbered cars all around that you will realize that the Ticino is "überfremdet" by Zürcher people. Actually numerous old-age ZH people have permanent or temporary holiday homes in Ticino. And weekend excursions to Ticino are a most usual thing in Zürich. And quite many Zürcher go shopping in Ticino ! Those prices ARE OF HEAVY interest to "them". And by "them" I mean people here and not some incredibly overpaid ..........
Once again, you have totally missed the point. It's just not worth explaining; I don't want to read through a 2,000 word irrelevant essay on the history of Ticino, in response. However, I will just point out that not a lot of Zürchers do their everyday grocery shopping in Ticino. If you still don't get it, there's nothing more I can do for you.

As for demagoguery, methinks you protest too much ...
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Old 27.06.2012, 15:24
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

Well, the point is not that prices are significantly cheaper in Lugano (they aren't), but rather that if I can buy beef tenderloin for CHF 42 / kg in Lugano (and I can), I would expect you to be able to find it for a similar price elsewhere in Switzerland, though perhaps not at Migros/Coop/Manor.

Tom
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Old 27.06.2012, 15:44
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Re: Absurd Swiss prices

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Well, the point is not that prices are significantly cheaper in Lugano (they aren't), but rather that if I can buy beef tenderloin for CHF 42 / kg in Lugano (and I can), I would expect you to be able to find it for a similar price elsewhere in Switzerland, though perhaps not at Migros/Coop/Manor.

Tom
Not been following this thread, but a number of the recent posts seem to be comparing CH prices to those in the US. A ridiculous comparison, for several reasons. Comparing Switzerland with neighbouring European nations makes more sense, although one must be wary of the current exchange rate distorting things somewhat. On that basis I'd say that it's only in a few specific areas that Switzerland is significantly more expensive that France (which is my basis for comparison, based on first-hand experience only). Beef, yes, cheese, well a little bit cheaper, milk, not any more, lamb, again not so much, pork, not at all...

As for the US, well yes, most food products there are very much cheaper than they would be in most of Europe. Meat especially so, but then again, I can buy meat here that's been raised in humane natural conditions, and has the flavour to match it. I gladly pay more for such products than the over-fatty, under-flavoured, hormone-stuffed beef that's the norm in the US.
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