Our first impressions during a visit - Page 3

Uncle Max · #41 13.09.2007, 10:05

	Quote:	stamp
	<snip> Then you get used to the comfort zone and start to take these things for granted , and you start missing the things like sense of humor, possibility to chat with taxi drivers, going for a drink after work without planning it two weeks ahead, decent TV, decent newspapers, cheap but good food, possibility to see live music every weekend, having friends that are not only expats like yourself and moving out of country eventually, crowds in the streeet after 8 pm and on Sundays......

With the exception of the crowds in the street, I have access to and enjoy all of the above. Perhaps it's a language issue?

Rolling stones gather no moss, etc.

dannyt986 · #42 14.09.2007, 16:03

Nah... he must be a quantity surveyor or project manager.

Moving within Europe (Ive done belgium, germany, france, italy, uk and switzerland) ain't really so different from country to country (frankly I had more culture shock moving from London to Manchester than coming to Switzerland), so it does come across a bit OTT.

But if you relocate regularly and between very different cultures and with very different standards of living, and not on an expat junket or a massive salary, it starts to make sense.

D

hugh_abu · #43 14.09.2007, 16:35

Can't wait to meet this guy... he sounds excellent!!!!

One night we'll all get an invite round to his and there'll be huge binders full of information on each of us and marks out of 100.

terryhall · #44 14.09.2007, 16:40

I think gingerness is an automatic penalty of -100, so I've got some catch up to do...

Polorise · #45 14.09.2007, 16:42

	Quote:	hugh_abu
	Can't wait to meet this guy... he sounds excellent!!!! One night we'll all get an invite round to his and there'll be huge binders full of information on each of us and marks out of 100.

But Hugh, you could have such a jolly time comparing your respective paper clip collections ...

Gunnar · #46 15.09.2007, 03:21

What an obsolute scream - I am laughing so hard..... It has really alleviated stress I didn't know was there about moving to Switzerland. My visit is scheduled for the second week of October with a move in date of November 1st and the movers are packing up my stuff next week (I'm lucky to already have a place to live in Zurich). I am a lister and have 27 cards of facts, reminders and details - this helps me to feel in control - but this string has helped me most of all. What a great lot you are!

#47 15.09.2007, 10:55

OK, I'm game. Here's a start:

Underlying Economy

Rate of Inflation (in %)

What is inflation? I have heard OF it but I don't really understand it - I mean in the UK they used to take house prices out of the equation to make it look better - seemed silly to me.

Price of Housing (2, 3, 4, 5 Yrs. Ago)

No idea - is it linked to inflation?

Price of Gasoline

What the feck is Gasoline? Can it be used in a similar way to vasoline?

Average Salary (Determine opinion from all walks of life)

I asked the guy who cleans the toilets at work, added in my own, and asked the CEO of the company I'm contracting with - result is twelvty hundreds.

Cost of Lunch

Working on the Kebab average I'd say about 9 CHF.

Cost of Dinner

18 CHF.

Cost of McDonald's Value Meal

I would rather die.

Cost of a Cup of Coffee at Starbuck's

I would rather die.

Cost of a Movie

What's a movie? Starting to think there's a language problem here.

Cost of a DVD Rental

Cheaper to buy them when the film has been out a few months.

Cost of a Haircut

Those that know me will realise what a very silly question this is in my case.

Cost of a Manicure

Postal Service

Ask the wife.

Parcel Service
- FedEx
- DHL

Yes. And DHL has a nice online thing when you can tell them when you want it deleivered and then they will come several hours or days later - it's so unpredictable I like it.

Nope, my ADS has kicked in - that's my lot.

Colonelboris · #48 16.09.2007, 22:56

	Quote:	terryhall
	I took a night to sleep on my boss' job offer and said "Yes" the next morning. By my standards, that's some fairly spectacular planning.

It took me less than ten minutes to say 'yes'. Then we started the planning. The ten minutes was 'yes, I am serious, I have got a job offer' a few times. If the uni at Karlsruhe had been half an hour earlier with their offer, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I'd be the most hated poster on englishforum.de instead...

eejit · #49 16.09.2007, 23:47

	Quote:	mick c
	Dinner for 2...50.00 to 80.00 CHF ($40 to $70)

	Quote:	mick c
	We just found out yesterday that there is a TV tax in addition to monthly cable service. 450 CHF per year. That's another 38 CHF per month (20 liters of fuel, or a dinner for two) no problem now that we know about it.

Mick, I don't want to put a damper on things but you'd better get used to those McD Value Meals.

mick c · #50 17.09.2007, 20:47

Hi All,

Glad to see this topic has kept everyone interested over this past week. It's important stuff and deserves the attention.......

Some additional finds over the past week had to do with the lease agreements on apartments or houses. It seems that some landlords like to play some games when it comes time to move out. Apparently, "condition of property" is a very subjective term and can be a point of major contention upon your departure. Landlord's can place insurance claims for what seems like minor items, yet in their evaluation, is worth thousands of CHF.

Some items to consider in this area...........Do a complete walk through with the landlord or representative before you sign the lease. Understand their expectations for a "clean exit" of the property. Take notes and pictures if needed. Be sure you are covered by some sort of property insurance.

Another item has to do with replacement of electronics and appliances. Those of you moving from the US will find that you will probably end up buying all new appliances and electronics due to the voltage and Hz (cycles) difference. US 110v-120v and 50hz-60hz. Switzerland 220v-50hz. Some US appliances can be used with either an adapter or transformer but the majority will not work. Anything with a motor will see a decrease in performance and diminished life span.

Some web sites for research on make, model and pricing...........As in the US, the prices are all over the place but to replace everything that is common to a US household (kitchen appliances, entertainment electronics, household electronics, minor power tools) will cost about $3,000 to $6,000 US (not including a washer and dryer)(High-end electronics will cost considerably more)

www.dvdoverseas.com
www.fust.ch
www.toppreise.ch

Some positive news......Computer's and Monitor's are another story. Most are built with a dual voltage adapter, so you may only need to change the cord that goes from the pc/monitor to the wall socket.

Now to some of the posts of the past week..................

Glad to see the personal attacks have continued. Very interesting stuff. Must be a lot of frustrated psych majors out there. Freud had nothing on you guys.

OK, I'm game. Based on the majority of posts, I think a general statement could cover most of them.

Having worked in Operations and the Construction industries most of my life, I can say that many of my character traits, that seem to be of such interest, are a result of experience and an appreciation for diligence in being prepared for contingencies. Is it a lot of work? Sure......Can it be boring and monotonous? Absolutely........Can it be fun as well? You Betcha'. It's just up to the individual.

In my posts, I have never complained about the cost's. It's all relative. They are, what they are. This is just part of the work that needs to be done to be used as a guide in negotiating a proper relocation package for the current economy. Based on the posts, most of you must have gotten a great package and are living very comfortably. To those, I salute you and wish you congrats on your good fortune. (Using McD's, Starbuck's, etc.... as examples......were used "only" as points of reference that are common in everyday life in the US and most places, no matter how distasteful they may be to some.)

Also, I have never said that adjusting to a new culture and lifestyle was something we weren't excited about or looking forward to. It is part of that excitement and overall unknowing of what the future holds that makes it fun. What it is about......is trying to avoid cultural missteps or some sort of "faux pas" at the start that would make it more difficult to to assimilate. Remember, you only get one first impression. This site is a good example of that.

Being American, we realize there is a pretty big barrier to start with. We don't want or need to make it any larger.

I'm not very interested into getting into a discussion of "Impulsive" vs. "Objective" decision making. Whatever makes you happy is the most important thing.

An aside, for what seems to be a fervent group of psychoanalyst's out there........There have been a long line of book's published on impulsive behavior's and "herd" mentality. A recent publication "Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell is a good read and somewhat relevant.

An ongoing anecdotal observance of this phenomenon has been the euphoric rise, top, and ever steepening decline of the US housing market. Watching people leave their careers by the 10's of thousands, over the past 5 years, to become real estate agents, mortgage brokers and the like. There is something to be said for "risk taking" but any research into the extent of the current real estate cycle would have shown the end was near. Now everyone is seeking a "bailout" of some sort or looking for something or someone in which to place blame. I see that similar effects are being felt in the UK as well, with the bank and mortgage lender Northern Rock.

Enough on that..............

What it all comes down to is......this process can be difficult but "is" necessary. We can't wait for this whole negotiation/relo process to be over and get started with our new life in Switzerland.

Have a Great Week,

mick c

#51 17.09.2007, 21:14

Hi Mick.

Something which usually throws folks from the US is tipping in restaurants and bars.

maverick71 · #52 07.10.2007, 05:59

	Quote:	mick c
	We just returned from our first trip to Switzerland and are reviewing all of our findings. In thanks for all of the help provided by this great community of ex-pats and natives, I would like to share the due diligence outline that I had put together for our initial assessment. This outline is the by-product of many moves and hopefully will be helpful to anyone considering a move to Switzerland or anywhere else. I have read many posts throughout this web-site in regards to cost of living and the like. For those coming from the US I can give a general idea of the cost vs. the US Dollar. (Take into consideration that the $ is at a 15 year low against almost every major foreign currency. The current exchange rate vs. the Swiss Franc is......$1.00 will get you 1.20CHF). What will that get you in "real" goods? Essentially, everything will cost DOUBLE what it costs in the US. Some examples of common every day expenses.....Gasoline 1.72 CHF per liter of gasoline or 6.50 CHF ($5.20) per gallon, a cup of Starbucks coffee 6.00 CHF ($4.85), Big Mac Value Meal 13.00 CHF ($10.40), Dinner for 2...50.00 to 80.00 CHF ($40 to $70), Haircut for man 40.00 CHF, for woman 60.00CHF. Groceries are along the same lines with cleaning products, detergents, soaps being more than double in price. Produce and Meats are expensive but of a very high quality. Some better prices on produce can be had at local street markets that every town has once or twice a week. A quick note on eating out. Almost every grocery store has a restaurant. The food is very fresh, good and as reasonably priced as you are going to find. For those of you from the US, compare with Whole Foods or Wild Oats. It's like a Whole Foods on steroids !!! Very Cool !!! As far as I can tell, Medical care is some of the best in the world but pay close attention to whatever insurance you decide on because annual deductibles can be very high (over 1,000 CHF). If you have a pet, be prepared for sticker shock on the price of food and pet products in general. I have read several threads in regards to housing and related costs. This is a very subjective area for analysis. We have always looked at the cost of housing in terms of PRICE PER SQ. FT. (Swiss residences are measured in sq. meters (m2). Conversion of a sq. meter = 10.76 sq. ft.). We found costs to be higher per M2 than described in many of the threads. Our search was from Geneva to Vevey and we found that the cost per M2 was between 23.00 CHF and 29.00 CHF or about $2.50 per sq. ft. I know there are areas that are less and areas that are more but this is a good range for a family seeking living conditions that are similar to middle class in the US. You can spend less and live in a very nice apartment but you will give up square footage. Make sure your furniture will fit as bedding, couches and tables tend to be larger in the US and may not fit in smaller living spaces. A couple of very important items to consider in the area of Housing....There are typically, NO CLOSETS and NO LIGHT FIXTURES (maybe a light bulb hanging from the ceiling, that's it) in the apt. or rental house. Add to your budget for these items. We went to IKEA and found self constructed closets for 400CHF to 1000CHF and ceiling light and lamp prices run the gammit. If this is your first relocation move, here are a couple of tips...... Look at the move as if you were starting a business. Try and think of everything you do in your life on a daily, weekly, monthly, and annual basis. Focus on all of the small things (where you get your dry cleaning done, where you get your car fixed, etc...) The things that you take for granted in your every day life are the things that are the hardest to replace when you move. Put a budget together. Focus on all RECURRING COSTS vs. FIXED COSTS. The recurring costs will kill a budget in the first year. I can guarantee you that. Write it all down. Put levels of importance on certain things. Remember, you are going to HAVE TO give up some things. Be open to a new way of life. In general on the economy....... Eventhough prices are higher than we are accustomed to, they are normal for the Swiss and they seem to live a very well balanced life. You don't see the areas of poverty or wealth that you see in the US. There is more of a wide ranging middle class that seems to include much of the general population. Certain things are less expensive in the US but, in turn, the people who work those jobs get paid less and can only afford less. The Swiss seem to make enough money for the majority to participate in the economy on a middle class level. There is something to be said for that type of balance. As for general observations of the Swiss lifestyle and friendliness..... We look at it as we always have. This has been kinda' like our credo, if-you-will, when we move to a new place.......It is our resposibility to adapt to the culture and lifestyle while striving to be respectful and change our life to fit the culture and environs including trying to learn the language as quickly as possible. Look at EVERYTHING as an Adventure, even the difficult times. Look forward to all of the new and rewarding experiences. Remember, I am just moving myself so I may not be able to answer a lot of questions. Enough rambling........here is the Outline (in the next post). Good luck to those of you considering a move or in the process. Enjoy, Be Diligent, mick c

Thanks for the great tips I will be moving early next year so this is helpful!!

hopschweiz · #53 10.10.2007, 06:54

It's been great reading the first post and the responses. My family and I are planning to move to Basel soon from th US and we've had many discussions on the costs of things...so this was helpful. Yes, the list is a bit too exhaustive for me, but my wife (who has the Swiss blood) thought it was great....

mark · #54 10.10.2007, 08:59

I'm sorry, but since this thread is rather anal my blood started to boil by the second page about all the poor, abused plural nouns. It begged the question as to whether the original poster (who appears to be someone who does things thoroughly) might in fact be a greengrocer [wikipedia.org].