Been thinking since the sudden and short lived "libertarian invasion" here a couple of weeks ago. Thought I'd ask here rather than googling.

Many American libertarians seem to make much of Switzerland having a 'militia' army. But my understanding is that the Swiss military is absolutely nothing like the redneck gun clubs we see farting around doing mock tactical moves on YouTube. In the American analogy I thought the Swiss military was more akin to the national guard(s) except compulsory. Basically equipped pretty much like a typical medium-sized european military with tanks and fighter planes. And fitness regimes not burgers and Internet purchased AR15s.

About the only thing in common with American militias is the allowance of mullet hairstyles.


Discuss.

It use to be regardet as a duty to defend the country, so most of us did it with some pride.Today howerver most of theme are a bunch of wimms,IMO

Seems a fair assessment to me.

Despite the majority of the cannon-fodder being made up of part-time conscripts, there are also a fair number of full time professionals - the top brass .... and you can hardly expect an F-19 fly jockey to keep his hand-in for a couple of weeks and few weekends per year.

Whats a F-19 jockey?

A driver of one of these:




However, in real terms they're F-18's and Saabs.

Lots of posts by people who don`t really know. Fun stuff.

More ??????

IMHO, Art. 58 of the federal constitution sums up pretty well the differemce between the wet dreams of these people and reality.

Section 1: As you said, the Swiss armed forces are regular armed forces, they "just" happen to be organised, in part, as a militia. Basically a case of an "eternal" general draft (art. 59 section 1: "Every Swiss man is required to do military service.")

Section 2: The Swiss armed forces are an instrument of government, and not, in any way, a means of the people to defend themselves against the government.

Section 3: The command over the armed forces lies entirely with the confederation (central government). So they are not, in any way, an intrument that the individual member states (cantons) could use to defend themselves against the central government.

We don't have Saabs but F5-Tigers.
They're just talking about buying the Saab Gripen at the moment.

I assumed that was a done deal by now.
Have Hornets and Tigers flying over me on a near daily basis - and occasionally even the Tigers with a red and white paint scheme.

I think the councils have to approve of the deal before they can finally buy the planes. But I'm not 100% sure.

Aren't the National Guard units in the USA A) units based on the state where they are and B) consisting mainly of reservists ? The Swiss army since the day of Berlin-Military-Academy educated General Ulrich Wille is a strictly federal army of the union. And split into three sorts. The RS units of people between 19 and 23 years old who serve 4 months of basic military service. Then the WK units (between 20 and 32 years old) who each year serve for three weeks. And then the EK units (between 30 and 42 years old) who serve either every third year for two weeks or every second year for one week.

The Swiss Federal Army up to the 1970ies (even 80ies) in spite of reforms, showed in many ways that it in 1914/15 was re-organissed along the lines of the army of the Kingdom of Prussia. Nothing "libertarian" in any way about it at all

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Few weekends per year ? No you are wrong
A) Most officers of the army except brigadiers, division-commanders and corps commanders and some instruction-officers (Instr-Offs) are NOT professionals, and I by this include colonels and colonel-lieutenants and majors
B) the fighter-jet you refer to is the F-18 (there is no F-19) and some armies (airforces) have F-16 or/and F-14. The fighter with the number 19 was the MIG-19
C) in Switzerland, many airforce-pilots during most of the year are pilots of commercial airliners ! They in their active time serve for 3 weeks per year. Nothing on the weekend

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As a minimum both chambers of parliament have to approve the deal. In case of doubt there even will be a federal public vote.

Such a vote may well be a test-vote. A NO about the deal may well result in a later vote to abolish the armed forces

I must be getting old (if no one remembers) ...... and my ironic attempt at humour, stagnant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-19_Stealth_Fighter

I guess it depends a bit on which branch in the army, there are still some who take it quite seriously.
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It is not always easy..
We had one sensible training course, the holiday camp for (mostly mentally) handicapped people. We had to organise a guard and schedule. Makes sense because in the event of fire or other emergencies you have to be able to react quickly. But since you can not have a guard without weapon and you should not carry a weapon without ammo, you are walking through the holiday camp (full of children who were also there and our guests) with weapon (live ammo), pepper spray and flak jacket (!?).

- we had a truck full of firefighter equipment but the nozzle was missing. Apparently it wasn't possible to get even one nozzle during 3 weeks. So you're just standing there holding the hose, looking stupid.

- On the first day we had to hike to some place. They were able to fail on the first junction (still inside the starting village), so we walked in a circle to the starting point. On the way they lost the route two more times.

- We had to erect a mobile hospital unit and just after finishing we had to deconstruct the whole thing because they realised that we were on the helicopter landing point (maybe they got confused by the H on the map).

- serious lack of planning/organising which is not always just funny or annoying because it can lead to dangerous situations for troops or other involved (or holding on to using time for war games instead of preparing really important things...during the holiday camp)

As it goes on and on like this, it does look like a mix between a professional army and unorganised groups running through the woods.
-----------------------------veered slightly off topic.. but sam has already covered the important and relevant stuff, not that I could have but anyway..

..Are there other interpretations in the US prominently discussed or is a militia widely understood the way those libertarian posters do?
(I always hear it has some bearing on the interpretation of the 2nd amendment, but I've not heard of other popular definitions of the term militia in the US)

Sounds almost criminal to me

They seem to know their stuff. A former school-friend of mine who has been in the British army since leaving school (and is about to leave after more than 20 years service) was in Bern a couple of weeks ago with representatives from his battalion (or whatever they call it ) attending a weapons training session run by the Swiss army.

He's been in tours all over Iraq and Afghanistan, so he's not some wet-behind-the-ears squaddie but he was impressed with whatever it was they learned.

Apparently they couldn't drink if their lives depended on it, though...

well the nozzle thing was laughable but did not matter as that was not during the camp. We would just have called the local firefighters (and in need supported...I guess) and evacuated.

It seems because of accidents in recent years and the fact that the old are not part of the WK anymore they try to bring more discipline. But they keep on harping on about and using time for unimportant war game crap neglecting the important.

Jj muge, the libertarian interpretation of "militia" is basically politically motivated airsofters but with real guns. Militia just means irregular forces although not all militia would identify with the term. For example I've never heard of the British territorial army being called a militia. Militia are normally raised by the government but in the US it has come to mean anti-government private armies yet ironically patriotic.

Apparently if you can cum in under a minute that is strangely relevant in the libertarian take too.

since military service is mandatory, the swiss military is not a libertarian poster child.

I would rather say that the very idea of a libertarian military is absurd. even national states are absurd. But as a libertarian myself, there is one thing that puts the swiss military way ahead of its US counterpart: its not invading countries left and right and switzerland is thankfully rather neutral (unfortunately less so in recent years)

Nobody calls the Swiss Army a "militia" as it is a "militia-army". In German keine Miliz, eine Miliz-Armee . There is absolutely nothing irregular in case of the Swiss Army. Militias and all kinds of private armies are strictly prohibited in Switzerland by federal law !

As far as I know, in Britain, Royal Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force are fully professional. My guess is, since the days of Clement Attlee. Whatever it alreays was a long time tradition back in 1972.

The US armed forces havily depended on conscripts until the end of the War in Vietnam and only were professionalised after 1975 .