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Old 10.11.2012, 05:15
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Putting a timer on the heating system?

Hi...practical advise needed...We live in a very well heated house with oil burner in the cellar and underfloor heating throughout (hot water pumped through underfloor pipes). It's all good, but we find that when the temperature starts to drop, like now, it goes into overdrive, and the house gets too warm. After fiddling unsuccessfully with the built in thermostat, we found a perfect solution: just putting a 5 franc timer on the burner's power plug. I set it to completely turn off between 20.00 and 05.45, and a few hours during the day when no one is home. This seems to work great, however it means the water temperature in the boiler drops to 30 degrees at night (from the normal 50 degrees). Is there any downside to this setup? Could I be damaging the system? I heard that excess calc buildup might be an issue at lower water temperature. Anyone with any experience in this?
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Old 10.11.2012, 06:37
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

With underfloor heating and a modern, well-insulated house a timer shouldn't make much difference to room temperatures. As the heating system runs on mildly warm water at about a maximum 35 - 40C, it should take about 24 hours to feel a difference..

You may find that you don't save any money (I know this wasn't your intention) as the system requires so long to cool down and heat up again.

I don't have experience with oil, but with gas and heat-pump the heating is on continuously.

Can't you put the timer on the pump that circulated the heating and so have hot water while the heating is off. But in all I think adjustments to either the thermostat(s) and or the heat curve, if you have a computerised system, would be better...
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Old 10.11.2012, 06:43
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

We had the same problem with our old oil heating - in winter time it as alwaays too warm. Ours had an outside thermostat which the previous owners 'insulated' with cardboard tube, and we pushed the sliders for the heatig curve on the thermostat (with scale from about 0.2 to 4.0 right down to the bottom - also the red and blue day/night fine adjustment).


I thought about doing what you have done with interrupting the power supply but was unsure it was a good idea - just cutting off the power when the burner is burning. I know that when the burer starts it runs the fan first before the burner lights - dont know about shutting down.

Also your water temp should be at least 60 degrees C at least once per day, to protect against Legionella - if it is cycling between 30 and 50 this is too low.
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Old 10.11.2012, 09:19
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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<snip> Also your water temp should be at least 60 degrees C at least once per day, to protect against Legionella - if it is cycling between 30 and 50 this is too low.
This is also a very good point. We were warned not to have our hot-water tank below 60C due to bacteria. (Actually, the heat pump can't get much hotter tan 60)...
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Old 12.11.2012, 08:09
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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This is also a very good point. We were warned not to have our hot-water tank below 60C due to bacteria. (Actually, the heat pump can't get much hotter tan 60)...
We have a heat pump and it is set to heat the water to about 48 degrees. Once per night (when the rates are lower) there is an electrical immersion heater in the boiler which heats the water up to 60 degrees- required by law I believe.
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Old 12.11.2012, 08:34
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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We have a heat pump and it is set to heat the water to about 48 degrees. Once per night (when the rates are lower) there is an electrical immersion heater in the boiler which heats the water up to 60 degrees- required by law I believe.
Never heard that, before.
In my old house the heat pump controlled boiler (for hot water only/heating was a separate unit) heated up to a max. of 55. There was a manually operated rocker switch for an electric immersion heater element - but I was never told I should use it to heat the water up to 60+

My new house, is a single heat pump for hot water and heating, and I don't think there is even an option to manually switch on an electrical immersion heater to heat the water above 55 - I believe it's automatically switched as and when needed (hopefully).

To the OP:

I don't think it is advisable to continually interrupt the power supply, for reasons already mentioned - it could cause problems in the long term, as the system was obviously not designed to function like this.

It could be that you have a faulty thermostat, that may need replacing. Despite the expense of calling in a heating engineer, it may be the overall best option.
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Old 12.11.2012, 08:56
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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My new house, is a single heat pump for hot water and heating, and I don't think there is even an option to manually switch on an electrical immersion heater to heat the water above 55 - I believe it's automatically switched as and when needed (hopefully).
I didn-t say it was manual - mine is also automatic. The immersion is preset to 60 degrees and during the night it gets power automatically during the low tarriff and heats it up to 60 degreees.
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Old 12.11.2012, 09:12
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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Hi...practical advise needed...We live in a very well heated house with oil burner in the cellar and underfloor heating throughout (hot water pumped through underfloor pipes). It's all good, but we find that when the temperature starts to drop, like now, it goes into overdrive, and the house gets too warm. After fiddling unsuccessfully with the built in thermostat, we found a perfect solution: just putting a 5 franc timer on the burner's power plug. I set it to completely turn off between 20.00 and 05.45, and a few hours during the day when no one is home. This seems to work great, however it means the water temperature in the boiler drops to 30 degrees at night (from the normal 50 degrees). Is there any downside to this setup? Could I be damaging the system? I heard that excess calc buildup might be an issue at lower water temperature. Anyone with any experience in this?
I think you need to optimise the heating curve. Our system measures the outside temperature and calculates the moving average of this temperature over the previous 24 hours. This value is then used as an input to determine how much heat to provide. Our system has three basic setpoints to detemine the heating curve, which may be somewhat similar to yours. The first, (a), is the outside temperature at which the load curve starts, the second, (b), defines how much heat to provide at the start point and the last, (c), defines the point at which 100% heat is provided. An example: (a) is 20C, (b) is 30% and (c) is -12C. This means that above 20C (this would be the moving average temperature) no heat is provided. At 20C, 30% is provided and at -12C (and below), 100% is provided. You can plot these points on a chart with % up the y-axis and outside temperature along the x-axis and you'll have the heat-curve. In my example, if it's too warm, then decrease (b) or (a).

There are a few other settings, which are usually hidden, as these can really mess up things if you get the settings wrong. Best advice, is get the full manual for the system, take a note of all settings then reset everything to factory defaults and start from there. If you have the settings that the installer made, then implement these after the factory reset. Bear in mind that any changes may not be felt for 24hrs or so.

It may also be that the system is using the instantaneous outside temperature, rather than the average, in which case a sudden, large drop outside will cause the heating system to provide much more heat than is required.

Hope this helps.
Chris
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Old 12.11.2012, 10:28
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

I believe a simple fix should help:

Check if the flow of the floor heating piping is not set too high. There is an adjustment ring by indicator for the flow which can be turned to increase/decrease the flow. (Brown on the image below)


If the flow is too high, then when the valve opens (the thermostat gives signal to open) a lot of warm water is quickly circulated, heating the floor too much. By the time the heat from the floor gets to the thermostat, the pipes are way too hot. So even if it switches off, it takes a lot of time to cool down.

Manually adjusting the flow achieves basically what was written before re. the curve, but w/o having to reprogram everything.

It could be that the previous owner/ tenant was just too impatient for the place to heat up and turned the knobs all the way up.

BTW: On/off heating is probably the most inefficient way to go (there is a lot of literature about this).

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Hi...practical advise needed...We live in a very well heated house with oil burner in the cellar and underfloor heating throughout (hot water pumped through underfloor pipes). It's all good, but we find that when the temperature starts to drop, like now, it goes into overdrive, and the house gets too warm. After fiddling unsuccessfully with the built in thermostat, we found a perfect solution: just putting a 5 franc timer on the burner's power plug. I set it to completely turn off between 20.00 and 05.45, and a few hours during the day when no one is home. This seems to work great, however it means the water temperature in the boiler drops to 30 degrees at night (from the normal 50 degrees). Is there any downside to this setup? Could I be damaging the system? I heard that excess calc buildup might be an issue at lower water temperature. Anyone with any experience in this?
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Old 12.11.2012, 14:01
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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I believe a simple fix should help:

Check if the flow of the floor heating piping is not set too high. There is an adjustment ring by indicator for the flow which can be turned to increase/decrease the flow. (Brown on the image below)


If the flow is too high, then when the valve opens (the thermostat gives signal to open) a lot of warm water is quickly circulated, heating the floor too much. By the time the heat from the floor gets to the thermostat, the pipes are way too hot. So even if it switches off, it takes a lot of time to cool down.

Manually adjusting the flow achieves basically what was written before re. the curve, but w/o having to reprogram everything.

It could be that the previous owner/ tenant was just too impatient for the place to heat up and turned the knobs all the way up.

BTW: On/off heating is probably the most inefficient way to go (there is a lot of literature about this).

This is also possible, but these valves are the balancing valves and if one is adjusted, then the other circuits that are in parallel may be affected and then receive more, or less, flow.

The controller (re. my earlier post) tells the heating system how much energy the building requires to heat it up, based on the outside temperature, the physical properties of the building and the concrete floor (which performs a storage function). This is the starting-point in the chain. Once this is set up, the balancing valves (on the flow return) are then adjusted to ensure that the energy provided by the boiler is correctly split between the rooms (done with all room thermostats open). The final chain is then the room thermostat which controls the flow inlet valve and thus the 'comfort temperature' desired by the user.

At the end of the day, we don't know if the OP's system is incorrectly programmed, or completely out of balance. But, between us, I think we have described quite well how it works (or should work!)

(Incidentally, I created an Excel spreadsheet for our system that simulates the programmer and individual room controllers. It will even tell me what the temperature of the floor should be, how long it will take to heat up, and so on. So far, it works very well, and allows me to see the results of any changes directly.)

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 12.11.2012, 14:15
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

I don't know...this timer solution I implemented has been working really well for several days now...and the the heating system is actually off 13.5 hours a day because of it, so maybe I'm even saving fuel? I am a bit concerned about what happens when it just cuts off the power in the middle of a heating cycle with the burner running full blast...is there something that automatically cuts off the fuel feed?
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Old 12.11.2012, 15:11
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This is also possible, but these valves are the balancing valves and if one is adjusted, then the other circuits that are in parallel may be affected and then receive more, or less, flow.

The controller (re. my earlier post) tells the heating system how much energy the building requires to heat it up, based on the outside temperature, the physical properties of the building and the concrete floor (which performs a storage function). This is the starting-point in the chain. Once this is set up, the balancing valves (on the flow return) are then adjusted to ensure that the energy provided by the boiler is correctly split between the rooms (done with all room thermostats open). The final chain is then the room thermostat which controls the flow inlet valve and thus the 'comfort temperature' desired by the user.

At the end of the day, we don't know if the OP's system is incorrectly programmed, or completely out of balance. But, between us, I think we have described quite well how it works (or should work!)

(Incidentally, I created an Excel spreadsheet for our system that simulates the programmer and individual room controllers. It will even tell me what the temperature of the floor should be, how long it will take to heat up, and so on. So far, it works very well, and allows me to see the results of any changes directly.)

Cheers,
Chris
Yep....the possibility to disturb somewhere else in the system is a risk but sometimes you don't have other options.

I my holiday apartment I can only adjust the temperatures in the individual rooms by adjusting these balancing valves as the settings on the oil fired boiler is set by the "haus wart" and is not for me to touch. I have adjusted the flow to all rooms now as the previous owner preceded minimum 4 degrees Celsius more than me. I have thought about adding a shunt and some remote/thermostat controlled valves to each loop but I will not make that call before after another season.

Another thing. The "haus wart" has asked a company to come and clean the floor heating tubes. I have never heard of this before and being a long time fully operational DIY engineer into mechanical stuff I am a bit sceptical. We will all be charged 250 CHF per loop so my 5 loops will cost 1250 CHF for what in my opinion is a hoax fueled by fear.

I have googled on this topic ....dirt in floor heating tubes but found nothing. IMHO it is the boiler one have to clean/keep clean.

In takes on this?
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Old 12.11.2012, 15:15
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

100% correct. The reason I referred to the balancers is that - in case the OP does not have access to the entire heating system but only to his own flat - these balancers offer also the possibility of reducing overall flow (by reducing flow in all circuits).

Of course if one has access to the overall system, then optimizing the entire system is best.

Anyway: I believe in both cases the on/off heating as the OP proposes is very inefficient and might even harm the system as it is NOT designed for regular current cut-offs. Ours for example even has a UPS to ensure proper shutdown in the even of power failure.

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This is also possible, but these valves are the balancing valves and if one is adjusted, then the other circuits that are in parallel may be affected and then receive more, or less, flow.

The controller (re. my earlier post) tells the heating system how much energy the building requires to heat it up, based on the outside temperature, the physical properties of the building and the concrete floor (which performs a storage function). This is the starting-point in the chain. Once this is set up, the balancing valves (on the flow return) are then adjusted to ensure that the energy provided by the boiler is correctly split between the rooms (done with all room thermostats open). The final chain is then the room thermostat which controls the flow inlet valve and thus the 'comfort temperature' desired by the user.

At the end of the day, we don't know if the OP's system is incorrectly programmed, or completely out of balance. But, between us, I think we have described quite well how it works (or should work!)

(Incidentally, I created an Excel spreadsheet for our system that simulates the programmer and individual room controllers. It will even tell me what the temperature of the floor should be, how long it will take to heat up, and so on. So far, it works very well, and allows me to see the results of any changes directly.)

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 12.11.2012, 15:18
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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Yep....the possibility to disturb somewhere else in the system is a risk but sometimes you don't have other options.

I my holiday apartment I can only adjust the temperatures in the individual rooms by adjusting these balancing valves as the settings on the oil fired boiler is set by the "haus wart" and is not for me to touch. I have adjusted the flow to all rooms now as the previous owner preceded minimum 4 degrees Celsius more than me. I have thought about adding a shunt and some remote/thermostat controlled valves to each loop but I will not make that call before after another season.

Another thing. The "haus wart" has asked a company to come and clean the floor heating tubes. I have never heard of this before and being a long time fully operational DIY engineer into mechanical stuff I am a bit sceptical. We will all be charged 250 CHF per loop so my 5 loops will cost 1250 CHF for what in my opinion is a hoax fueled by fear.

I have googled on this topic ....dirt in floor heating tubes but found nothing. IMHO it is the boiler one have to clean/keep clean.

In takes on this?
I did hear that from time ti time it does not hurt to clean the loops with some lightly abrasive stuff circulated in them. Whether it is necessary in your case it is difficult to tell.
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Old 12.11.2012, 15:40
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

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Yep....the possibility to disturb somewhere else in the system is a risk but sometimes you don't have other options.

I my holiday apartment I can only adjust the temperatures in the individual rooms by adjusting these balancing valves as the settings on the oil fired boiler is set by the "haus wart" and is not for me to touch. I have adjusted the flow to all rooms now as the previous owner preceded minimum 4 degrees Celsius more than me. I have thought about adding a shunt and some remote/thermostat controlled valves to each loop but I will not make that call before after another season.

Another thing. The "haus wart" has asked a company to come and clean the floor heating tubes. I have never heard of this before and being a long time fully operational DIY engineer into mechanical stuff I am a bit sceptical. We will all be charged 250 CHF per loop so my 5 loops will cost 1250 CHF for what in my opinion is a hoax fueled by fear.

I have googled on this topic ....dirt in floor heating tubes but found nothing. IMHO it is the boiler one have to clean/keep clean.

In takes on this?

Yes, this is a hoax fuelled by fear. The pipework is plastic, but I have seen a lot of companies here that will fuel you full of fear about the ill-effects of not cleaning your pipes, all supported by anecdotal, and sometimes very weak evidence... Every year, they have some 'new' evidence.

I disconnected, and had a quick look inside, a heating pipe in our last flat, that had been in continuous service since '97. It was clean (at least the first 3 cm that I could see). Certainly nothing that would warrant a company to come and squirt liquid gold down it..

I would not pay the 1250,-CHF - at all. It's just a cash-cow.
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Old 12.11.2012, 15:47
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Re: Putting a timer on the heating system?

good to know.

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Yes, this is a hoax fuelled by fear. The pipework is plastic, but I have seen a lot of companies here that will fuel you full of fear about the ill-effects of not cleaning your pipes, all supported by anecdotal, and sometimes very weak evidence... Every year, they have some 'new' evidence.

I disconnected, and had a quick look inside, a heating pipe in our last flat, that had been in continuous service since '97. It was clean (at least the first 3 cm that I could see). Certainly nothing that would warrant a company to come and squirt liquid gold down it..

I would not pay the 1250,-CHF - at all. It's just a cash-cow.
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Old 12.11.2012, 16:06
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Yes, this is a hoax fuelled by fear. The pipework is plastic, but I have seen a lot of companies here that will fuel you full of fear about the ill-effects of not cleaning your pipes, all supported by anecdotal, and sometimes very weak evidence... Every year, they have some 'new' evidence.

I disconnected, and had a quick look inside, a heating pipe in our last flat, that had been in continuous service since '97. It was clean (at least the first 3 cm that I could see). Certainly nothing that would warrant a company to come and squirt liquid gold down it..

I would not pay the 1250,-CHF - at all. It's just a cash-cow.
Thanks.

My thoughts too. However, the other owners in the building have already decided to do this at a yearly owners meeting where I was not present.

I will try to make them go along on a different approach as they are all scared of the consequences by not doing it (The letter from the pipe cleaning company showed a lot of scary pictures with Shit pulled out of "a system").

However, I will suggest to clean one loop only at first and decide further approach upon the findings. Even though the other owners are Swiss I cannot imagine they want to spill 6000+ CHF for nothing.
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