Recent threads have brought up the topic of not being honest with the police or other authorities in Switzerland, and the consequences involved.

• Would you lie to the Swiss police, if so, under what circumstances?
• Would you lie to other Swiss authorities? (eg. ticket inspectors, tax office, SVA, etc)
• Do you think there are circumstances where bending the truth is acceptable?
• What would you do if you got caught?

Discuss....

I think you would include witholding info in your definition of lying.

I believe everyone does this to an extent taking a judgment on possibilities for detection. Generally though sanctions for this are higher than in Anglo-saxon cultures with a "buyer beware" ethos.

I suppose in criminal matters no, civil matters maybe.

Just had first hand experience of this about half an hour ago.

I discovered over Christmas that of the many things that my employer never did which he told me he would, setting up health insurance was one of them. I signed loads of forms in my first week here, and always presumed that one of these was health insurance. However when we parted ways, I asked for the details and he told me he never did it for me.

So, I went on comparis and filled out the forms to apply for health insurance. I was called back by a company today and was faced with the ethical problem.

a) Just sign up for the insurance - they'll never find out that I've been here 7 months, it'll be fine
b) Sign up and tell them when I got here, ask them if they can backdate the policy to June 2007
c) Explain what the situation is, and ask them how best to go about resolving things.

So, I went for option c - up front and honest. The lady on the other end of the phone explained that the process now would be I get a new policy starting from today, they will contact my local gemeindeburo and confirm the date I entered Switzerland (which would have uncovered the lie in option A) and will then issue an invoice to cover backdated payments for when I arrived.

However given the circumstances of how this has arisen she also said that it's likely that there will be a compromise made where I only have to repay 3 months of premiums instead of 6 months worth. (Which had I gone for option B and assumed I knew best, this offer may not have been made)

Once again I feel that a bit of honesty goes a long way, and certainly when dealing with legal matters if you try and lie your way out of it, you usually just end up digging a hole for yourself. Better to come clean and then find a way to sort it out.

I guess the answers will fall into two categories:

Would you?: Maybe
Should you?: Hell no!

I would never lie to the authorities, ever!!!!

But then, that might be a lie.

isn't this more "who are you most afraid of"? i go with terry - honesty is the best policy. but lying isn't always wrong. i would lie to my best friend if i thought it was the moral thing to do - i don't judge lying by who is being lied to.

Good point well made. One small lie to protect the bigger picture, can do, have done, will do again I have no doubt. I'm no saint, I just don't see the point in lying to police / civic authorities. They'll just get you some other way if you've cocked up.

Could we add the option of "I would like to think that I would never to lie to the authorities."

No, it's not worth lying; first on principle and secondly (and this is big in CH) because of the consequences if you get caught. But I'm sure that if I thought about hypotheticals long enough, I would find some situation where I would waiver. You really have to search pretty hard to find someone who would absolutely, under no conditions, ever lie to authority. So let's call it (for me) a 99% rule. I think that it's my own interest to invariably tell the truth, even when it's clear that a lot of my friends wouldn't or where you could reasonably expect to get away with it. It might hurt to get a fine for doing something stupid like littering. And you might get away with it if you lie. But would it still be worth it if it turns out that the polizei can prove that not only you did, but also that you are a liar? Easier to just admit it at the start. Less guilt, less stress, no need to try and keep track of some fabrication that you then have to make.

When could I justify bending the truth? I suppose the obvious answer would be in witholding information. If I forgot my train pass at home, I am not going to feel too guilty getting on the train without paying again, because I know that I do own a yearly pass. If I get caught it might seem a touch unfair to pay a fine because it isn't in my possession, but c'est la vie. I might bite my tongue and play a wee bit stupid when it would not be to my advantage to be candid with authority e.g. I might not volunteer information to an assessor that would increase my taxation if I am not legally compelled to do so. I would probably heed legal advice to say nothing in a proceeding even though an omission sometimes seems tantamount to a lie. But I have to rely upon my advocate that he knows the appropriate time in an arcane process to table the facts. I might bend the truth if I believe it is the morally correct thing to do. But I also think that my 99% rule counts double if you get caught. That really is the time to fess up, before things get even worse.

There is a "I wouldn't lie" option missing

Not to put to fine a point on it but lying to the tax authorities is practically a national sport. So I'd say I was most likely to lie to them, as in, being a bit creative about deductions. You then either get the deduction granted or a little note saying something like "as you have already deducted public transport to work we cannot allow the deduction of a bicycle as well". It is immaterial whether you actually OWN a bike, you still try and deduct it.

To lie, or not to lie... Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of swiss authoritive figures...
Having worked in a bank here, and learned some of the tax laws, and the allowances made for those who really can afford not to pay tax in the way we have come to know and love (except of course if you are in some way associated with the US), i think that "missrepresenting what may be seen as the truth" is a given, when filling out tax forms.

However, many of the laws here are also to "protect the people" (ie: having a government enforced cap on how much interest a bank can charge you on your loan). The "sorry, this is how it happened, what can i do to fix it" approach, like with the health insurance, is probably the best option here... i think here people basically assume everyone tries to be upright.

When we first moved here 9 years ago, the shops in the village still had thier coke bottle display sitting on the footpath during the 2 hours they shut for lunch...

We (well our fiduciary) also fall under the category of 'try to save taxes wherever you can'.

Other than that, honesty and wysiwyg are my ways of dealing with anyone and I usually expect that people are the same with me, only to become a tad miffed when realising not everyone thinks/behaves alike, now either i am too naive or the world around me has changed in a way that i don't recognise it anymore sometimes.

I find when dealing with whatever Swiss authority,it's usually the best approach to be upright and honest,coz if you lie and are found out,then the consequences could be much worse..............

It's all about risk, how serious or harmful is the situation that the lie could prevent and how serious are the consequences of lying.

I actually consider most fines (as an example) to be pretty fair in Switzerland, so it's not worth lying:
80chf for forgetting ticket on public transport
40chf for minor speeding offense
240chf for medium speeding offense

At the end of the day it's a fair cop, it's all to do with just getting it out of the way and getting on with life.

I actually got a ticket for shooting a red light in the UK that I knew I wasn't guilty of, but the fine was £80 and 3 points so I took it rather than going to the effort and expense of driving to Oxford just to contest it, it's just one of those things.

If the situation is really bad, you're facing being deported or something and a lie might save you of course I'd go for it, what have you got to loose at that point?

If you have a lot of time on your hands and enjoy getting stressed over trivia, then you can contest it.

Write several letters in German to navigate a system you dont understand, which may ultimately be futile. And for 80CHF. Work out the value of your time, and unless there is a major matter of principle at stake, judge it on that.

dave

Where is the option 'none of the above' ?

your cries have been heard

Hi Terry,

its a bummer to have that happen. Your employer was not legally required to pay for your health insurance, but he is legally required to pay for your SVA insurance (diability, invalidity etc), at least minimum pension contributions and occ & non-occ accident insurance if you were employed for more than 3 months. The level of these contributions depended on your salary.

Let me know if I can help further, cos from what you have said, you have not been treated very well this far...

dave

Matters of principal cost a lot more than 80chf IMO

Thanks, i have cast my vote

Yes, but fight the battles worth fighting. If I got flashed for speeding, and received a ticket, and I couldnt even remember being there, then I could spend a couple of hours dealing with it, argue with a couple of people on the phone about it, pick up a couple of registered letters about it, have extra charges added to it for nonpayment, and ultimately end up paying.
I would guess that means spending 4-5hours of my life on it, without factoring in the stress and annoyance factor. Avoiding this is worth more than 80chf (to me).

dave

PS: Before you ask, I enjoyed the 2 minutes I spent writing this post.