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Old 22.07.2013, 10:38
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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To the naysayers of green energy:

So what about that?

http://inhabitat.com/germany-sets-ne...-power-demand/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-set-to-...ear-phase-out/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-quadrup...ast-two-years/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-sets-an...ration-record/

Just for comparison our 5 nuclear power plants did produce 72 GW on average in 2007.

So Water, Wind and Solar is just for dreamers, yes?
http://www.platts.com/latest-news/el...first-26089429


Your points only tell half the story.

Yes, Germany produced nearly half its weekend power, but in the middle of a very hot summer. 18 hours of sunshine means the solar cells were in overdrive. Couple that with the fact that less electricity is used for heating and the like, means that this is a misleading fact. Do you think the same energy sources would be able to hit the same % levels in a freezing dark December weekend? No, it wouldn't.

The first half of 2013 saw 51% of Germanys energy come from coal. Yes, dirty, polluting, disease-causing coal. Thats why they have the excess energy to ship out to the netherlands. They had to burn more coal, to ensure they would not be caught out by the unpredictability of your wishy wind power.

Come back when your solar panels can power a country when theres a foot of snow outside, and everybodys inside heating their homes, and making brews. until wind/solar can do that...drill, baby, drill.
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  #42  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:06
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

The nice thing about solar cells is that they easily scale and you never look at providing 100% capacity with one source of energy only. So your point "Come back when your solar panels can power a country when theres a foot of snow outside" is moot.

I guess you would agree that the Frauenhofer Institute is a respectable University? Fakten zur PV pages 26, 27, 28
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  #43  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:24
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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http://www.platts.com/latest-news/el...first-26089429


Your points only tell half the story.

Yes, Germany produced nearly half its weekend power, but in the middle of a very hot summer. 18 hours of sunshine means the solar cells were in overdrive. Couple that with the fact that less electricity is used for heating and the like, means that this is a misleading fact. Do you think the same energy sources would be able to hit the same % levels in a freezing dark December weekend? No, it wouldn't.

The first half of 2013 saw 51% of Germanys energy come from coal. Yes, dirty, polluting, disease-causing coal. Thats why they have the excess energy to ship out to the netherlands. They had to burn more coal, to ensure they would not be caught out by the unpredictability of your wishy wind power.

Come back when your solar panels can power a country when theres a foot of snow outside, and everybodys inside heating their homes, and making brews. until wind/solar can do that...drill, baby, drill.

The problem is two-fold:
- transportation (new power-lines would be needed to transport the energy from e.g. the off-shore wind-parks to the south, but it may take years or even decades to plan, build them - and get them through the courts, most importantly)
- storage (there has to be a way to store all that excess-energy produced during the day to store it through the night. There are various concepts and ideas and usually, the most easy to get (public) approval for are also those with the least efficiency...and vice-versa)

I agree that burning coal is not a good idea. But I also have a hunch that "nuclear" isn't a much better idea, either.
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  #44  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:27
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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To the naysayers of green energy:

So what about that?

http://inhabitat.com/germany-sets-ne...-power-demand/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-set-to-...ear-phase-out/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-quadrup...ast-two-years/

http://inhabitat.com/germany-sets-an...ration-record/

Just for comparison our 5 nuclear power plants did produce 72 GW on average in 2007.

So Water, Wind and Solar is just for dreamers, yes?
And from one of your links
"During winter months when the sun isn’t shining every day and the wind dies down, Germany relies on coal reserves, including, if necessary, (nuclear) power plants in Austria"

Wind & Solar cannot meet peak demand in such winter conditions; until they do you cannot close one traditional or nuclear power station.
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  #45  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:31
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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And from one of your links
"During winter months when the sun isn’t shining every day and the wind dies down, Germany relies on coal reserves, including, if necessary, (nuclear) power plants in Austria"

Wind & Solar cannot meet peak demand in such winter conditions; until they do you cannot close one traditional or nuclear power station.
Thats today, have a look at the Frauenhofer Institute paper
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  #46  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:37
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

PV is becoming more efficient and cheaper and BIPV (building integrated photovoltaic s) is where the market is heading as this is what architects want to specify on new builds. PV can make power even in low light conditions. No one is pretending they are the complete solution but it should be implimented into new builds. Years ago nobody had double glazing, now you wouldn't buy a modern house without it!!

Wind power has it part to play too and can be removed without leaving any scars on the landscape. Its kinda strange how we don't make good use of free energy resources but complain about the price of the energy pumped into our homes. The future will be a mix of green and traditional energy production.
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  #47  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:43
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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The nice thing about solar cells is that they easily scale and you never look at providing 100% capacity with one source of energy only. So your point "Come back when your solar panels can power a country when theres a foot of snow outside" is moot.

I guess you would agree that the Frauenhofer Institute is a respectable University? Fakten zur PV pages 26, 27, 28

Linking a german paper on an english forum...Good move.

The point is not moot...Solar power has been found wanting, as has every other renewable source of energy. It will never provide a majority of energy over a sustained period of time. Even Germany, the great bastion of renewables, was forced to backtrack and resort to coal power stations, the worst polluters out there. Not in our lifetimes will renewables contribute to the majority of our power.
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  #48  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:50
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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PV is becoming more efficient and cheaper and BIPV (building integrated photovoltaic s) is where the market is heading as this is what architects want to specify on new builds. PV can make power even in low light conditions. No one is pretending they are the complete solution but it should be implimented into new builds. Years ago nobody had double glazing, now you wouldn't buy a modern house without it!!

Wind power has it part to play too and can be removed without leaving any scars on the landscape. Its kinda strange how we don't make good use of free energy resources but complain about the price of the energy pumped into our homes. The future will be a mix of green and traditional energy production.

Do you think more renewables will do anything to the price of energy?

Actually, they will...they'll push it up further. The investment, on a per-watt basis is much larger for renewables. This money will be recouped from the consumer. You think they're expensive now? Check back in 10 years.
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  #49  
Old 22.07.2013, 11:56
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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The nice thing about solar cells is that they easily scale and you never look at providing 100% capacity with one source of energy only. So your point "Come back when your solar panels can power a country when theres a foot of snow outside" is moot.

I guess you would agree that the Frauenhofer Institute is a respectable University? Fakten zur PV pages 26, 27, 28
About "I guess you would agree that the Frauenhofer Institute is a respectable University?"
No! Fraunhofer is Europe’s largest application-oriented research organization. There are 60 Fraunhofer Institutes in Germany.
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Old 22.07.2013, 11:57
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Linking a german paper on an english forum...Good move.
I guess you've never heard of the invention called translation service then? Let me introduce you to http://translate.google.com/. Helps me reading Icelandic news and posts so should be no problem to read a german paper in english

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The point is not moot...Solar power has been found wanting, as has every other renewable source of energy. It will never provide a majority of energy over a sustained period of time. Even Germany, the great bastion of renewables, was forced to backtrack and resort to coal power stations, the worst polluters out there. Not in our lifetimes will renewables contribute to the majority of our power.
Look at the picture on page 28. Government recons they need to cover 9% of the overall energy with Coal and Gas in 2050, the rest is renewable. And two other studies claim 0% fossile engergy need by then. But of course if you don't make a step in the right direction you stay where you are and keep your dependency on nuclear and fossile energy. Why not make the move while we can choose and are not forced to move?
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  #51  
Old 22.07.2013, 12:02
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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I guess you've never heard of the invention called translation service then? Let me introduce you to http://translate.google.com/. Helps me reading Icelandic news and posts so should be no problem to read a german paper in english



Look at the picture on page 28. Government recons they need to cover 9% of the overall energy with Coal and Gas in 2050, the rest is renewable. And two other studies claim 0% fossile engergy need by then. But of course if you don't make a step in the right direction you stay where you are and keep your dependency on nuclear and fossile energy. Why not make the move while we can choose and are not forced to move?
0% fossil energy will never happen. There is simply nothing out there that offers the level of reliability and return that fossil fuels do.

It is countless times more likely that by 2050, we will be fracking, and the only large shift that will have occured, is that instead of so much coal, we will be using cleaner gas.

30 years ago, people thought we'd have flying cars. To date, i have never gone to a showroom and asked, 'but what is this model's flight ceiling?'

And thanks for linking google translate, i wasnt aware google was able to do that. I would ask though, since it was your point, shouldnt you have dont the translating to begin with?
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  #52  
Old 22.07.2013, 12:06
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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PV is becoming more efficient and cheaper and BIPV (building integrated photovoltaic s) is where the market is heading as this is what architects want to specify on new builds. PV can make power even in low light conditions. No one is pretending they are the complete solution but it should be implimented into new builds. Years ago nobody had double glazing, now you wouldn't buy a modern house without it!!

Wind power has it part to play too and can be removed without leaving any scars on the landscape. Its kinda strange how we don't make good use of free energy resources but complain about the price of the energy pumped into our homes. The future will be a mix of green and traditional energy production.
About "Its kinda strange how we don't make good use of free energy resources"

What do you mean by free energy resources? The cost per unit of wind & solar energy is far higher than from traditional sources.

This is why Germany (& Denmark) have the highest electricity prices in the EU.
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  #53  
Old 22.07.2013, 12:11
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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0% fossil energy will never happen. There is simply nothing out there that offers the level of reliability and return that fossil fuels do.
And you know it better than these guys because of...?

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It is countless times more likely that by 2050, we will be fracking, and the only large shift that will have occured, is that instead of so much coal, we will be using cleaner gas.
I think you'll find that in europe people see fracking as something disgusting that they would like to avoid. In Switzerland where we have much influence over what happens I'm inclined to say that this will never happen.

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And thanks for linking google translate, i wasnt aware google was able to do that. I would ask though, since it was your point, shouldnt you have dont the translating to begin with?
Very sorry if I created the wrong impression here but I'm no full service provider. I will only point out the source of my information. Reading and understanding will always be required to be done by yourself
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:15
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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And you know it better than these guys because of...?


I think you'll find that in europe people see fracking as something disgusting that they would like to avoid. In Switzerland where we have much influence over what happens I'm inclined to say that this will never happen.



Very sorry if I created the wrong impression here but I'm no full service provider. I will only point out the source of my information. Reading and understanding will always be required to be done by yourself
-Because my occupation demands that i stay ahead of the curve when it comes to energy sources.

-Really?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23368505
Switzerland has bugger all influence in how the UK, France and Poland will dictate their energy requirements.
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:20
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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-Really?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23368505
Switzerland has bugger all influence in how the UK, France and Poland will dictate their energy requirements.
Of course every country will decide about fracking independently, I never said we have any saying in this. What I do say however is that who ever tries to do fracking in Switzerland will have a very bad time indeed
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:27
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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-Because my occupation demands that i stay ahead of the curve when it comes to energy sources.
Sorry, forgot to reply on this on my previous post: So do they. I guess unless you can prove that you are right with something more substantial than "trust me, I know it" I still stick to what large organisations say. That's not to say that they always know better but I tend to be suspicious if someone tells me to believe him without saying something about the source of information.
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:30
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Of course every country will decide about fracking independently, I never said we have any saying in this. What I do say however is that who ever tries to do fracking in Switzerland will have a very bad time indeed
Moot point. Switzerland doesnt have lucrative enough shale gas plays. Nobody wants to drill here. They'd rather go to the UK, Denmark, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Romania.
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:37
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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M... How do you solve the nuclear waist problem?...
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...If you are such an expert I'm sure you can tell this daft man how easily the nuclear waist problem can be solved, right? Please educate me.
Oh fracking h3ll what happened to this thread? 429 if you want to sound intelligent when making your points, at least get to know the difference between waste and waist.
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  #59  
Old 22.07.2013, 12:45
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Oh fracking h3ll what happened to this thread? 429 if you want to sound intelligent when making your points, at least get to know the difference between waste and waist.
Thanks for reminding me
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Old 22.07.2013, 12:49
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Sorry, forgot to reply on this on my previous post: So do they. I guess unless you can prove that you are right with something more substantial than "trust me, I know it" I still stick to what large organisations say. That's not to say that they always know better but I tend to be suspicious if someone tells me to believe him without saying something about the source of information.

Obviously the UK government isnt large enough. Its not like they spend a fortune on analysing every last painstaking detail...

Perhaps the EU, then, who refuse to recommend banning it?
http://phys.org/news/2013-07-brussel...shale-gas.html

No? How about the institute of Directors, whose report was quite conclusive in the benefits?
http://www.iod.com/influencing/polic...-gas-potential

between those two, there is a huge amount of power and lobbying force.

Perhaps this story, which shows the power of shale...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23317370

In essence, the US, a nation once dependant on oil from questionable regimes, is now exporting energy, and will be self sufficient for around 100 years.

I could go on, but frankly, whats the point... Just go to www.shalegasinfo.eu.
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