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  #81  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:02
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Hmmm
Point 12 says shale gas is better than coal re greenhouse gases & point 9 says coal is better than shale gas

The contradiction is quite significant. And will no doubt be ignored by the antifrackers.
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  #82  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:09
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

As you said, there are statements that are probably from Pro and Contra sites. So I guess
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While the public debate has largely focused on the water contamination that fracking process causes, little attention has been given to the fact that natural gas does in fact burn cleaner than other fossil fuels. This means that shale gas is a healthier alternative to other greenhouse gases -- and that replacing coal power plants could reduce greenhouse emissions by more than 50 percent. With the right regulation, shale gas is an enticing energy alternative for reducing air pollution.
is from a pro site and
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The potential for shale gas in undeniable, but cons outside of water pollution do exist. For example, the carbon footprint of shale gas is at least 20 percent greater and perhaps twice as great over the next 20 years when compared to that of coal. That means that fracking causes more methane emission than coal does.
is from a contra site.

If you read them closely then both could still be true without any contradiction at all. And this
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The contradiction is quite significant. And will no doubt be ignored by the antifrackers.
is just typical you
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  #83  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:18
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

Couple the Methane release of Fracking with the recently discovered 'mile wide' columns of methane rising in the Arctic due to the ice melting, then the eggheads better start doing more up to date calculations with regards to global warmin, etc !
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  #84  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:25
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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As you said, there are statements that are probably from Pro and Contra sites. So I guess

If you read them closely then both could still be true without any contradiction at all.
How can both be true concurrently?

Are you suggesting that a number of fracked wells requires the same level of energy, and has the same environmental impact as a whole coal mine network?
For comparison, this is a coal mine:


And this is a completed and fracked well:
Mod edit - link to unfeasibly large image of fracking

I know what i'd prefer.

Last edited by Slaphead; 25.07.2013 at 21:14.
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  #85  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:29
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Couple the Methane release of Fracking with the recently discovered 'mile wide' columns of methane rising in the Arctic due to the ice melting, then the eggheads better start doing more up to date calculations with regards to global warmin, etc !

The actual impact of the methane has been grossly exaggerated. Cows still release more methane then humans. By some of the flawed logic i've seen, we should be putting them down.
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  #86  
Old 25.07.2013, 14:47
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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How can both be true concurrently?
One talks about Greenhouse emissions and air pollution (2 different things) whereas the other talks about the overall carbon footprint (a third, only related thing). So yes I guess depending on what else is calculated into that carbon footprint it can be true.

As for the rest: Who said coal was a better option? We where talking about renewable energy
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Old 25.07.2013, 20:31
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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One talks about Greenhouse emissions and air pollution (2 different things) whereas the other talks about the overall carbon footprint (a third, only related thing). So yes I guess depending on what else is calculated into that carbon footprint it can be true.

As for the rest: Who said coal was a better option? We where talking about renewable energy
I see; so burning shale gas instead of coal will decrease greenhouse gas emissions by 50% while at the same time will have a 20% greater carbon footprint

One of us needs to go back to school, Mathematics 101.

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It appears to have taken (very limited) excerpts from both for and against sites, without going into any detail. I assume for the detail you have to go to the for/against site itself, which are far from neutral.
So completely useless then
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  #88  
Old 25.07.2013, 21:52
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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I see; so burning shale gas instead of coal will decrease greenhouse gas emissions by 50% while at the same time will have a 20% greater carbon footprint

One of us needs to go back to school, Mathematics 101.



So completely useless then
Basically, yes, completely useless.
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  #89  
Old 26.07.2013, 08:10
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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I see; so burning shale gas instead of coal will decrease greenhouse gas emissions by 50% while at the same time will have a 20% greater carbon footprint

One of us needs to go back to school, Mathematics 101.
I thought that the carbon footprint involved also other factors besides greenhouse gas emissions. According to Wikipedia I'm wrong. So there is indeed quite a contradiction.
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Old 22.08.2013, 01:59
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

There is nothing to stop scientists working on Hydraulic Fracturing or the growth of the industry. Scientists just do their jobs, they invent whatever can sell and let politics take care of whether it should or shouldn't be used. So you cant blame the scientists or the industry there is way too much money in it. There is money in it because the companies that do it are able to get away with all kinds of violations or manipulating the law, while raking in massive profits. The fines are paltry. The public wants cheap energy.

Everything you see on Gasland is true, everyone who works in the industry knows it. The only way that you will stop 'fracking' is to make yourself be heard and get a change in the laws. It is up to you to decide if you want your children to pay the price of cheap energy today, or are you prepared to pay more, or cut back on energy consumption.

But if you ask me- is it really as environmentally bad as they say? The answer is " YES"!
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  #91  
Old 22.08.2013, 02:11
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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You can't trust a fracking specialist as they're all associated with the fracking industry. In the same way, you can't trust a doctor as they're all associated with the medical industry.
No, you can trust them, you just won't want to hear what they tell you. It's the politicians who will put the spin on it.

The most worrying thing about it is the proprietary chemicals, the ones that they use that they don't have to tell you about. These come up in large concentrations in the waste water, how do they get rid of them?

Then you have to think about the aquifers, how do you concrete a cavernous area? You can't, you can't stop it from getting into the aquifers
Anyone who tells you that it is safe is not an expert.

This town now has no water due to Fracking http://www.theguardian.com/environme...e-oil-no-water

Then there are the earthquakes........

The Oil and Gas industry is a dirty industry, if you don't want it them start cutting back on wasting natural resources or pay more to make the industry safer or change the laws.

Last edited by Hoppy; 22.08.2013 at 03:01. Reason: Addition
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  #92  
Old 22.08.2013, 09:57
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

So? Jevon's paradox says that it doesn't matter what you do and it's all going to crap anyway, so don't worry, enjoy what we have for the moment and screw the future, saving resources won't make one iota of difference to the final outcome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
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  #93  
Old 22.08.2013, 10:14
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

US and the UK are interested heavily in Fracking Technologies.
Such disasters would come there as well..............
First is : Water / Nature / Environment Pollution
Second : Huge disaster

WHatz next ??
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  #94  
Old 22.08.2013, 10:16
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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Anyone who tells you that it is safe is not an expert.
I do just luurve expressions like that. Really supports one's credibility
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  #95  
Old 23.08.2013, 14:30
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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There is nothing to stop scientists working on Hydraulic Fracturing or the growth of the industry. Scientists just do their jobs, they invent whatever can sell and let politics take care of whether it should or shouldn't be used. So you cant blame the scientists or the industry there is way too much money in it. There is money in it because the companies that do it are able to get away with all kinds of violations or manipulating the law, while raking in massive profits. The fines are paltry. The public wants cheap energy.

Everything you see on Gasland is true, everyone who works in the industry knows it. The only way that you will stop 'fracking' is to make yourself be heard and get a change in the laws. It is up to you to decide if you want your children to pay the price of cheap energy today, or are you prepared to pay more, or cut back on energy consumption.

But if you ask me- is it really as environmentally bad as they say? The answer is " YES"!
Gasland is a load of tosh. Thats what everybody in the industry knows. If everybody in the undustry knew that it was all true, why would they publicly release a debunking film called Truthlands? Would that not open them up to incredibly expensive lawsuits, everytime something went wrong? Or is it more likely that the army of scientists, engineers, technicians and experts have looked at all the pros and cons and come to a reasoned informed decision? Is it possible that people are protesting against something they do not fully understand?

The laws are fine as they are. we dont need new laws. What we do need is informed understanding, something that, going by this forum, seems hard to come by. Is it as simple as 'use less energy today and prevent your children paying the price?'. Of course not. The world needs energy, there are no two ways about it. You can switch off your kettle a few seconds earlyearly, but there are whole continents which are only just starting their industrial revolution. Who are you to tell them they're not allowed the energy to propel themselves into the future, the same way Britain did hundreds of years ago?

Our current energy demands mean we need reliable, consistent energy from somewhere, something wind and solar cannot provide. Why not use shale gas to reduce coal dependancy globally? The UK, for one, is still importing coal. Coal is far, far worse then natural gas. Until we can get our renewable energy infrastructure ready, why not use shale gas as a bridge?

The world is changing. If we, as a race, do not adapt, we go backwards. If we dont use shale gas, we will need much more expensive imported gas. When that gets too expensive (and it will) we will need more oil and coal. OPEC are rubbing their hands in glee.

Last edited by J2488; 23.08.2013 at 15:15.
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  #96  
Old 23.08.2013, 15:02
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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No, you can trust them, you just won't want to hear what they tell you. It's the politicians who will put the spin on it.

The most worrying thing about it is the proprietary chemicals, the ones that they use that they don't have to tell you about. These come up in large concentrations in the waste water, how do they get rid of them?

No they dont. these chemicals constitute less then 0.5% of the water used, and most are denatured in the reservoir. The stuff in the water coming up is what was already there, dissolved in the water. Keep in mind, the water that comes up is not the same as the water that goes down.

The chemicals are not proprietary to the extreme. They are shared with the local government, and in most cases published on the internet. When there is stiff competition, and when laws allow, their names are kept secret, but even then US law demands they are shared if public health depends on it. The companies actually send this information directly to the doctor in question.

Then you have to think about the aquifers, how do you concrete a cavernous area? You can't, you can't stop it from getting into the aquifers
Anyone who tells you that it is safe is not an expert.

Wrong again. Aquifers do not exist as large, empty, underground caverns. They exist like oil reservoirs, the water is soaked on and in permeable rock.
You dont concrete the aquifer. You concrete the hole you drilled. The aquifer is naturally sealed by impermeable rock. This rock is why there is an aquifer to begin with, because it traps the water. Completing a well (the name for the cementing it) is a very simple process, and has been done since oil drilling began. As long as this concrete is applied correctly, (which comes down to individual workmanship, not the fracking process) the aquifer is completely isolated. Water and gas cannot get through several inches of concrete and steel.

This town now has no water due to Fracking http://www.theguardian.com/environme...e-oil-no-water

The companies were allowed to take water from the aquifer, so they did. Blame the person or persons who allowed them to do this. If the local government allows you to take a resource yu need which is close by, cheap, and saves your company money, why wouldnt you take it? Lets be clear about this, the oil companies will get the cheapest water they are allowed to. If you ban them from using the towns drinking water, they wont use it. This town didnt. Its a shame, but companies exist to make money. They can afford the use seawater and whatnot, but if they dont have to, they wont. Thats the pragmatic truth, im afraid.

Then there are the earthquakes........

The Oil and Gas industry is a dirty industry, if you don't want it them start cutting back on wasting natural resources or pay more to make the industry safer or change the laws.

There is no such thing as a clean industry. If not in the literal sense, industry is always dirty under the surface. Why should the oil industry be any different?
See above.
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Old 23.08.2013, 20:03
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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See above.
It sounds like you are 'in the industry' You just have to give me time to do the research and get back to you as I am not 'in the industry' and I am back to studying next week- but I will find out what I can.

No, there is no such thing as a 'clean energy industry' but there are much cleaner ones. We all have to start looking at ways to save energy.

But just off the top of my head- you say that you don't concrete the aquifer, but then you go on to tell me how you concrete it and try to plug the holes. Then you say that it comes down to individual workmanship with later admitting that the oil companies will get away with what they can- like taking a town's whole water supply. Aquifers have already been polluted.

Research is being done to increase the pressures, the pressures are going to be pretty impressive.

So you totally discredit this guy? http://vimeo.com/14472351
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Old 23.08.2013, 20:37
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

Here is the Duke University study showing evidence of the increase in Methane in aquifers due to fracking.
http://www.nicholas.duke.edu/hydrofr...ing%202011.pdf

I have been told that we are not going to stop hydrofracking (although some towns of course have banned it). That may be true, however as you have already admitted that the industry will get away with whatever it can, I think that it is time for more federal oversight. Firstly, in 2005 Bush-CHeney exempted Hydrofracking from the Safe Drinking Water Act. NO industry should not be allowed to be exempt from the Safe Drinking Water Act. Secondly, when the industry gets caught drilling where they shouldn't should be much heavier.

You tell me that concreting and adding steel to the aquifers makes them safe, yet the waste water pumped into them is full of corrosives designed to etch through open up and keep open any fissures. Tiny fissures will be present through natural earth movement and the pressures caused by hydrofracking. No-one really knows the true mapping of an aquifer- they are often cavernous, you could explore them for years and still not know how they are linked.
I am not blaming you as a scientist if you are in the industry, you are just doing your job, but please safe us from the rhetoric that you may have been given to ease your conscience. You can carry on working in the industry conscience-free as you are just there to serve the customer. It is the general public that has it on their conscience every time they waste energy, demand cheap energy and do not bother to act to change environmental laws.
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  #99  
Old 23.08.2013, 20:43
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

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...

Then there are the earthquakes...
In 2008, the Sichuan Earthquake killed 80'000 people. Looks like the earthquake was induced - by the dam built for hydroelectric power.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5912/322.summary

Just thought I'd mention it.
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  #100  
Old 23.08.2013, 20:48
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Re: Earthquake - St Gallen (aka worldwide nuclear disasters - don't ask)

The Niagara Falls city council problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/ny...king.html?_r=0
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