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  #41  
Old 03.09.2013, 10:29
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Re: Train suicide

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I feel highlighting the grief associated with suicide in the context of selfishness is irrelevant as we grieve any loss of life of those we are close to. A loss that is often not a choice to be made by the person.
Whilst I understand and agree to your further explanation... for me it's a matter of making the best of what's left, and even more important: Can the person dying and I come clean, and are we going to be able to say our good-bye's to each other.

If someone get's sick, there's more likely time to become adjusted (as good as possible at least) to the fact that the person is slowly dying. So there is a process of understanding what's going on, and making sure whatever time's left is being used for the best of both parts: the dying, and the left-behind.

But a surprising action like a suicide doesn't leave that space and therefore rips your heart out on a complete different level. The shock, the agony, the incapability of trying to understand why, to be left behind with so many questions... and the worst: not being able to say goodbye... it's a different level of grief... but I totally disagree that this would be considered to be irrelevant.
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  #42  
Old 03.09.2013, 10:38
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Re: Train suicide

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But a surprising action like a suicide doesn't leave that space and therefore rips your heart out on a complete different level. The shock, the agony, the incapability of trying to understand why, to be left behind with so many questions... and the worst: not being able to express yourself to the person... it's a different level of grief... but I totally disagree that this would be considered to be irrelevant.
Death can snatch anyone of us at anytime, be it suicide, a heart attack or a car crash. Love, hurt and grief all go hand-in-hand. Tread kindly with your loved ones and let them know how you feel before it's too late.

Peace.
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  #43  
Old 03.09.2013, 10:59
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Re: Train suicide

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One smile from you, one kind sentence and one sincere "how are you" can make a huge difference in a person's life.
Indeed.

Instead, some people get far more satisfaction in cowardly ridicule
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  #44  
Old 03.09.2013, 11:04
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Re: Train suicide

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... and the worst: not being able to say goodbye... it's a different level of grief... but I totally disagree that this would be considered to be irrelevant.
How and why does saying good bye help?
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  #45  
Old 03.09.2013, 11:22
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Re: Train suicide

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How and why does saying good bye help?
There is a concept of closure - it's important for some people, like closing a book, the feeling you've done what you can, a feeling of peace. Doesn't mean you won't miss the person, but for some people, it helps with the loss.
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  #46  
Old 03.09.2013, 11:30
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Re: Train suicide

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There is a concept of closure - it's important for some people, like closing a book, the feeling you've done what you can, a feeling of peace. Doesn't mean you won't miss the person, but for some people, it helps with the loss.
Exactly what I meant.
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Old 03.09.2013, 11:47
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Re: Train suicide

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Whilst I understand and agree to your further explanation... for me it's a matter of making the best of what's left, and even more important: Can the person dying and I come clean, and are we going to be able to say our good-bye's to each other.

If someone get's sick, there's more likely time to become adjusted (as good as possible at least) to the fact that the person is slowly dying. So there is a process of understanding what's going on, and making sure whatever time's left is being used for the best of both parts: the dying, and the left-behind.

But a surprising action like a suicide doesn't leave that space and therefore rips your heart out on a complete different level. The shock, the agony, the incapability of trying to understand why, to be left behind with so many questions... and the worst: not being able to say goodbye... it's a different level of grief... but I totally disagree that this would be considered to be irrelevant.
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There is a concept of closure - it's important for some people, like closing a book, the feeling you've done what you can, a feeling of peace. Doesn't mean you won't miss the person, but for some people, it helps with the loss.
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Exactly what I meant.
These are all personal sentiments and not the sentiments of the one who chose to end their life. They chose not to say goodbye to you, not to seek closure, not to make peace, if there was any of these things deemed necessary to do.

Sentiments to help those left behind to deal with the grief do not change anything. I would find more peace in the fact the person who took their life is at peace and did what was right by them, not me.
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  #48  
Old 03.09.2013, 11:53
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Re: Train suicide

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For me the issue comes quite simply down to the fact that people who commit suicide are not in full control of their faculties (fake attempts sh/could be discussed separately).

The view that people with depression and other mental disorders, where suicide rates are high, do not have an illness is archaic to say the least and do nothing to help reduce the stigma associated with them.

Do you blame a cancer victim for having cancer? Or a woman for having osteoporosis? Or a someone for having rheumatoid arthritis? Sure, lifestyle choices can affect any of these diseases, but it is crass to suggest (in most cases) that these people brought it upon themselves and any failure of treatment or care is their own fault.

The sooner people get off their high horses and realise that psychological problems are not imaginary but based on real chemical changes, which can sometimes be managed successfully (or not as per suicides), the better.
I do agree with you that mental sickness is a disease, exactly like cancer.

However, having a disease does not mean that your mental and emotional state cannot help fighting against it. In the case of cancer, it is well known that a person who has a strong will to beat the disease has more chance to survive than someone who gives up from the start. One's body isn't simply the sum of its chemical substances, even modern science cannot deny that.

Commiting suicide, because of mental illness or because you wish for euthanasy after a long physical illness, means giving up. I do understand why some people do it - I sincerely hope to have the courage to do it if I have a life-threatening disease one day.

But the way you do it changes everything. Swallowing poison for euthanasy-purposes after having let your family offer closure is one thing. Traumatising a train driver and your family forever is another.

While the train suicide person might have reached the peace they seeked, the bereaved family and friends won't. And that is a form of selfishness to me.
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  #49  
Old 03.09.2013, 12:04
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Re: Train suicide

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While the train suicide person might have reached the peace they seeked, the bereaved family and friends won't. And that is a form of selfishness to me.
I am not sure if selfishness is a word that fits..it's different, if your "disease" is the fact that all you see is you, and you as a defect, then selfishness loses the meaning, really, there is nothing more than that pain and you think you are this pain for everybody else..The pain that it contains for those who end their life makes people who are left behind understand the context and deal with anger, me thinks.

My best friend killed himself, I wish he gave me more time to help him, but wouldn't selfishly demand closure for myself, while his mom had to and still does have to endure all there is..That is hard to see and the fact he, with his IQ and life experience, was not capable to forsee that, just points to the level of misery one has to go through before..I think about him all the time, picked up his instrument, maybe that works as a closure, but the dialogue still goes on, I am thankful for those years we were together.
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  #50  
Old 03.09.2013, 12:50
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Re: Train suicide

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I would find more peace in the fact the person who took their life is at peace and did what was right by them, not me.
Just... how could you ever be sure that that's the case?

That it's peace they were looking for?
And if they found it by ending their lives...

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  #51  
Old 03.09.2013, 13:26
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Re: Train suicide

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How and why does saying good bye help?
Im not so sure that its the actual act of saying "Good Bye" but just being near someone in their final hours, to hold their hand...

I found it a comfort.. I never actually said "See Yea!" or had that big emotional "I love you" talk... I knew they knew that already. No doubt in my mind. But being there in their final hours was a huge comfort to me, I needed to be there, I needed to get on that flight home, I needed it & I needed it for me.

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I would find more peace in the fact the person who took their life is at peace and did what was right by them, not me.
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Just... how could you ever be sure that that's the case?

That it's peace they were looking for?
And if they found it by ending their lives...

I think that is a very philosophical conversation that depends on peoples thoughts, upbringing, religion etc....

I would always assume, after death you find peace as you are. . . no more.
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Old 03.09.2013, 13:40
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Re: Train suicide

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Im not so sure that its the actual act of saying "Good Bye" but just being near someone in their final hours, to hold their hand...

I found it a comfort.. I never actually said "See Yea!" or had that big emotional "I love you" talk... I knew they knew that already. No doubt in my mind. But being there in their final hours was a huge comfort to me, I needed to be there, I needed to get on that flight home, I needed it & I needed it for me.
Exactly!

My thoughts are, this tendency to look to good byes, closure, being there, comfort etc are all just ways of excusing the shock and perhaps anger.

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I think that is a very philosophical conversation that depends on peoples thoughts, upbringing, religion etc....

I would always assume, after death you find peace as you are. . . no more.
I agree. For me, someone has escaped the trapped troubled mind of theirs, given up trying or seeking a coping mechanism, and released their consciousness from the struggle of it's host. That on top of respecting ones decisions, from my point of view, is appreciating that person has chosen that route to find peace, which as you Swisscub says, may or may not be found, but I can respect their decision to take it.
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  #53  
Old 03.09.2013, 16:27
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Re: Train suicide

You raise some interesting points.

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I do agree with you that mental sickness is a disease, exactly like cancer.

However, having a disease does not mean that your mental and emotional state cannot help fighting against it. In the case of cancer, it is well known that a person who has a strong will to beat the disease has more chance to survive than someone who gives up from the start. One's body isn't simply the sum of its chemical substances, even modern science cannot deny that.
Yein. How do you stay strong, when the mechanism of the disease is one that makes you emotionally weak (for want of a better phrase)?

(auto)Immune diseases are hard to cure precisely because they make you weak, so while you might not die of the disease, you will die of something like pneumonia. Same with mental problems, they weaken the emotional controls that we inherently (or not) have as we grow up. So while I think you can draw the parallel that mental health is a disease (vs. made up), how it affects you and how your fight it is very different to, say, cancer.

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Commiting suicide, because of mental illness or because you wish for euthanasy after a long physical illness, means giving up. I do understand why some people do it - I sincerely hope to have the courage to do it if I have a life-threatening disease one day.
My posts have been refering to mental illness cases. I think euthanasia is a different discussion. Looking at CH, where options like Dignitas exist, you would think that most suicide cases are likely to be mental-problem related rather than someone closing following a long illness. In this instance, we come back to my original point that people with mental illness are simply de facto not thinking straight, however, lucid they may sound when you speak to them. The "public" face that people with mental illnesses display is often different and very conflicting with their internal emotions.

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But the way you do it changes everything. Swallowing poison for euthanasy-purposes after having let your family offer closure is one thing. Traumatising a train driver and your family forever is another.

While the train suicide person might have reached the peace they seeked, the bereaved family and friends won't. And that is a form of selfishness to me.
And this comes back to my point above re "state of mind". You judge based on the belief that the person really knows what they are doing.
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Old 20.03.2016, 21:15
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Re: Train suicide

Physics teacher asks his students to calculate height of bridge in Lausanne by example of suicide

Erm...

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Old 20.03.2016, 21:35
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Re: Train suicide

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Physics teacher asks his students to calculate height of bridge in Lausanne by example of suicide

Erm...

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Sick, no other word for it. Hope that this "Teacher" gets a lifelong career ban.
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  #56  
Old 20.03.2016, 21:41
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Re: Train suicide

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Sick, no other word for it. Hope that this "Teacher" gets a lifelong career ban.
That would be way OTT. An admonition will do the job just as well.
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Old 20.03.2016, 21:43
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Re: Train suicide

Even on EF some people believe that suitable advice to someone who is suicidal is to call Dignitas, so they don't miss next time...
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Old 20.03.2016, 21:47
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Re: Train suicide

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Sick, no other word for it. Hope that this "Teacher" gets a lifelong career ban.
I like the idea a group of people had - patrolling the bridge during the Christmas hols, and leaving a fire burning to keep those warm who want a chat with them.

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Old 20.03.2016, 21:48
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Train suicide

I agree it's tasteless, although I remember physics questions about calculating the speed at which a baby would fall out of a window and determining when to shoot an arrow at a charging tiger. Never did like classical mechanics much.

It does point to how banal these events are to people not directly affected. Sad.
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Old 20.03.2016, 21:49
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Re: Train suicide

The dad of a childhood friend of mine committed suicide this way.

It is actually really quite 'common' in Switzerland. I wonder why

And as far as mental illnesses in general are concerned: unfortunately, I have (and had) several friends and an ex-partner with severe mental illnesses, some of which have tried to commit suicide multiple times with no success, and some of which who have 'succeeded'. Rest assured that they do not know what they're doing when they're doing it. There is WAY too much stigma. No one would tell a paralysed person to just pull him/herself together and try walking. The same way you can't tell a severely mentally ill person to just cough it up and start thinking normally. They do not think normally. That IS the disease. So no, they will not care what their suicide does to others - that's the exact bit they can't put their heads around.

Depression can hit anyone. One friend I know was the smartest, happiest and most popular guy I ever knew. Got hit by depression out of nowhere, no prior history, shot himself three months later. Don't ever assume anyone is forever 'safe' from such illnesses.
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