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  #41  
Old 17.11.2013, 19:24
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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I don't believe it's a quirk of Swiss law, it's the same anywhere in the world. If something is stolen it's taken without permission.
If you leave your house unlocked or the keys in the door don't expect any insurance pay out
I think insurance company policies and the law are not necessarily the same. If you leave your door unlocked, it may be thoughtless at best, but it is still not an invitation or permission for someone to come in and take your stuff with intent to permanently deprive you of it (which is the definition under English law). Just because you lend someone your car (taken with permission) does not mean it is not theft if they fail to return it, with the intent to deprive you of it permanently.

Moreover, under many jurisdictions, title to an object does not pass without a contract and a consideration (payment). The quirk in Swiss law is that title to the object passes, even if it has been stolen or obtained fraudulently, providing the end buyer has bought it in good faith; the original owner no longer has a claim to the goods.
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  #42  
Old 17.11.2013, 19:56
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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I think insurance company policies and the law are not necessarily the same. If you leave your door unlocked, it may be thoughtless at best, but it is still not an invitation or permission for someone to come in and take your stuff with intent to permanently deprive you of it (which is the definition under English law). Just because you lend someone your car (taken with permission) does not mean it is not theft if they fail to return it, with the intent to deprive you of it permanently.

Moreover, under many jurisdictions, title to an object does not pass without a contract and a consideration (payment). The quirk in Swiss law is that title to the object passes, even if it has been stolen or obtained fraudulently, providing the end buyer has bought it in good faith; the original owner no longer has a claim to the goods.
I believe under UK law this is nothing more than a contract dispute. The buyer claims to have paid the sellers agent, the sellers agent has failed to pass on any money to the buyer.
Alternatively Credit was clearly agreed.......or the buyer could not have driven away. If the buyer has not paid it's merely breach of contract, rather than theft.
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  #43  
Old 18.11.2013, 14:12
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

Has the OP considered taking his ex-colleague 'agent' to court for the missing Fr 23'000 ?
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Old 18.11.2013, 14:18
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

How can one register a car in his own name without the owner being present to cancel the current plates/ carte gris?

I assume the car was owned by the previous (or current, no pun intended) owner and it wasn't leased since than it would state in the CG that the car was owned by the bank, so you needed a letter from the bank saying that you've paid off your loan.

I still think (or I am wrong?!) that someone can register a car under their name by just having the CG with him, this must have been done by the colleague as well?
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Old 18.11.2013, 14:40
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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How can one register a car in his own name without the owner being present to cancel the current plates/ carte gris?

I assume the car was owned by the previous (or current, no pun intended) owner and it wasn't leased since than it would state in the CG that the car was owned by the bank, so you needed a letter from the bank saying that you've paid off your loan.

I still think (or I am wrong?!) that someone can register a car under their name by just having the CG with him, this must have been done by the colleague as well?
Get insurance & turn up with card , very easy. It's who gets the speeding tickets nothing else!
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  #46  
Old 18.11.2013, 14:43
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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How can one register a car in his own name without the owner being present to cancel the current plates/ carte gris?
No problem at all, in fact it's quite normal.

Tom
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Old 18.11.2013, 15:17
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

My sympathies to the OP, I have seen what he has experienced happen to a friend and I think in this case the law is very odd (the fact that you have to keep the vehicle registration documents in the car and the fact that you can lay claim to a car just by having the vehicle document in your hand). Good luck and I hope you resolve your issue!
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  #48  
Old 18.11.2013, 15:23
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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Public implied threats of violence (even from across the pond) are not a good idea.
violence? what violence? i understood the texan way of resolving it was to have a hearty chat and shake hands afterwards...

also, be glad it was just your car and not your house that was stolen:

http://www.stolenhomes.co.uk/

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 18.11.2013 at 15:34.
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  #49  
Old 21.03.2015, 00:38
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

Hi TexAg96,

Marco Sala is in jail now.

I'll send you some details by MP if you want.

Regards.
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  #50  
Old 21.03.2015, 08:31
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

I just read through the whole thread and learned a lot. The big question is WHY don't they have a simple system to prevent this? Back in my home country, we have a thing called "Deed of sale" where it is indicated that this amount has been paid to the seller and includes siganture of both parties. It is then notarized. I sold my car in Finland where this wasn't necessary but I did it anyway thinking it will be like a contract that I drop all liability with the car.

I wonder how the perp got in jail?
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  #51  
Old 21.03.2015, 08:46
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

The basic answer is simple keep a photocopy only.. if you get a difficult cop the worst is a 20 chf fine. Most understand though and are ok with the copy which they check in the database anyway.
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  #52  
Old 24.06.2015, 16:38
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

Guy got locked up:

http://www.srf.ch/konsum/themen/umwe...kaeufer-herein
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  #53  
Old 24.06.2015, 17:26
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

To reduce your exposure you may want to consider having Code 178 (change of registered owner forbidden) added to your car permit. (http://www.stva.zh.ch/dam/sicherheit...178EIN1311.pdf).

This is what leasing companies do to avoid their cars being sold off without their permission. But it costs a bit extra to have this registered and you will receive a new car permit.

Last edited by Mica; 24.06.2015 at 17:32. Reason: forgot to add the "forbidden" part
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  #54  
Old 24.06.2015, 17:35
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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Moreover, under many jurisdictions, title to an object does not pass without a contract and a consideration (payment). The quirk in Swiss law is that title to the object passes, even if it has been stolen or obtained fraudulently, providing the end buyer has bought it in good faith; the original owner no longer has a claim to the goods.
I noticed this in the thread and was surprised and doubtful, so I checked and it is in fact wrong - the Swiss Civil Code says:

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Art. 934

1 A possessor whose chattel has been stolen or lost, or who has otherwise been dispossessed of it against his or her will, may reclaim it from any possessor within a period of five years. Article 722 is reserved.

1bis The right to recover an object of cultural heritage (not relevant)

2 If a chattel has been sold at public auction, or on the market, or by a merchant dealing in goods of the same kind, it may be reclaimed from the first and any subsequent bona fide purchaser only against reimbursement of the price paid.

3 In other respects, restitution is subject to the provisions governing possession in good faith.
So the original owner does have a claim on the goods for five years, although they would potentially have to pay the existing possessor's purchase price for them if they were bought in a reasonable manner. They could then bring a claim against the thief to regain that cost (or more likely their insurance would).
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Old 24.06.2015, 17:57
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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2 If a chattel has been sold at public auction, or on the market, or by a merchant dealing in goods of the same kind, it may be reclaimed from the first and any subsequent bona fide purchaser only against reimbursement of the price paid.

He may have a right but he has to pay for it.

In the case of Kassensturz the car was sold to a car dealer (merchant dealing in goods of the same kind). No problem so far. But then it was sold. Now the trouble starts.
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Old 24.06.2015, 18:13
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

I don't understand any german and the article doesn't google translate well but did the OP get their money back or at least some of it?
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Old 24.06.2015, 18:13
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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I don't understand any german and the article doesn't google translate well but did the OP get their money back or at least some of it?
Some of it.

It happened like this.

Seller put up ad-vert.
Con contacted Seller and wished inspection at independent Garage.
Seller drove car to Garage and left keys their.
Con came to Garage an claimed car.
Seller contacted Garage and requested car back as no notice from Con.
Con sold car to Used Car Dealer 1.
Used Car Dealer 1 sold to Used Car Dealer 2.
Used Car Dealer 2 sold to Used Car Dealer 3.
Seller found ad-vert of his car.
Test drove it an claimed it back.
Garage still denies any wrong doing. But shares some of the cost.
They hope they can recover anything from Con.
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  #58  
Old 24.06.2015, 18:22
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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Some of it.

It happened like this.

Seller put up ad-vert.
Con contacted Seller and wished inspection at independent Garage.
Seller drove car to Garage and left keys their.
Con came to Garage an claimed car.
Seller contacted Garage and requested car back as no notice from Con.
Con sold car to Used Car Dealer 1.
Used Car Dealer 1 sold to Used Car Dealer 2.
Used Car Dealer 2 sold to Used Car Dealer 3.
Seller found ad-vert of his car.
Test drove it an claimed it back.
Garage still denies any wrong doing. But shares some of the cost.
They hope they can recover anything from Con.
I don't get how the garage isn't liable. They say they had no reason to believe it was a con, but why is that an excuse - they are still the ones who handed the keys to the thief without permission of the owner.

Being stupid isn't normally a legal defense.
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Old 24.06.2015, 18:30
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

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Some of it.

It happened like this.

Seller put up ad-vert.
Con contacted Seller and wished inspection at independent Garage.
Seller drove car to Garage and left keys their.
Con came to Garage an claimed car.
Seller contacted Garage and requested car back as no notice from Con.
Con sold car to Used Car Dealer 1.
Used Car Dealer 1 sold to Used Car Dealer 2.
Used Car Dealer 2 sold to Used Car Dealer 3.
Seller found ad-vert of his car.
Test drove it an claimed it back.
Garage still denies any wrong doing. But shares some of the cost.
They hope they can recover anything from Con.
I assume the seller is the OP's friend rather than the OP who is back in the USA now.

How did the seller claim it back? Did the garage have the grey card in the glove box too?
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  #60  
Old 24.06.2015, 20:53
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Re: Warning to car owners - theft

My understanding was that the seller in the article has nothing to do with the OP. The guy is a serial con artist...even though "artist" might be too much.
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