Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 15.03.2014, 17:18
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,865
Groaned at 86 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 7,409 Times in 3,739 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Me too.
German skills would be pretty useless round here in any case, I don't even think they speak much in the commune office if a couple of the conversations I've overheard whilst in there are indicative of their German speaking skills.

Although at one time, long ago, my Flemish was at A2 level... I wonder if I still have my class certificates. Would that help? Apparently it's similar.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 15.03.2014, 23:40
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
It can be difficult to learn a language, especially if you're a stay-at-home parent or work in a fully-English speaking working environment (or where it comes to German, because it's not actually the local language in reality).
Exactly, High German is very different from Swiss German so asking for a certificate to prove your level of High German is just ridiculous.

Giving tax breaks to companies where English is the official language and then asking employees of these companies to learn German is nonsense.

It also limits mobility between Cantons. Recently Shire (pharma) moved their offices from Nyon to Zug. Now Shire employees who want a C permit are expected to produce a certificate of their German language ability?

The Swiss should start by learning to speak proper German themselves before they start demanding language certificates from others.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
This user groans at Dack Rambo for this post:
  #63  
Old 15.03.2014, 23:46
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
what do you mean by this? that some gemeindes pay more tax to have their residents avoid a language test? or that if you pay more than a certain amount of tax you don't have a language test?
Favorable treatment for the better off, no surprise there.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:30
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 953
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 959 Times in 459 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Exactly, High German is very different from Swiss German so asking for a certificate to prove your level of High German is just ridiculous.
You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.

Last edited by Aeneas; 16.03.2014 at 09:48.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Aeneas for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 5,118
Groaned at 189 Times in 148 Posts
Thanked 6,084 Times in 3,289 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Definitely a good thing. should be a B1 requirement. I think 5 years is more than long enough to learn the language.... Oder ?
Ha ha, wishful thinking in many cases, as far as I've seen. It is a lot more difficult to pick up the language if you don't really need it - i.e. at work or in the family.
I know 2 mixed couples who are together for more than 5 years and have continuously lived here, with one of them having German/Swiss-German as mother tongue....and after so many years they still speak English with each other, although neither of them is a native speaker...it is just the way it is. Should/must/have to...c'mon.
That is not to say I didn't learn the language, but I can understand why and how others don't.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:58
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.
Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:07
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,654
Groaned at 152 Times in 118 Posts
Thanked 9,578 Times in 3,220 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
It is not about logical or not. These countries have a treaty with Switzerland.
And after 5 years, everyone should be able to speak a language at A2 level.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:08
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 953
Groaned at 37 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 959 Times in 459 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
No, but that wasn't my point either.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:15
Sandgrounder's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ZH
Posts: 9,688
Groaned at 73 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 14,748 Times in 5,754 Posts
Sandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
It is not about logical or not. These countries have a treaty with Switzerland.
And after 5 years, everyone should be able to speak a language at A2 level.
I actually agree with this. It's German at a "comfort level" i.e. enough to make your life a bit easier in shops, restaurants and dealing with the every day bills, road signs and tram announcements.

Yes, there should be some incentive to get to this level but I'm not sure withholding a C permit is the way to go. There may be a treaty with certain countries which are exempt from this condition but stripping it back to its bottom line, it's still treating some EU countries, which are essentially in the same band and therefore equal, with unfair advantages.

Personally it wouldn't affect me as I'm now Swiss and I speak German / understand the dialect, plus I can still make sense when I'm tiddly (the real test!) but I can understand how some would view it as unfair.
__________________
“A hero is someone who understands the responsibility that comes with his freedom.” – Bob Dylan
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Sandgrounder for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sense-Gebiet
Posts: 474
Groaned at 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 475 Times in 235 Posts
Ramtin[e] has an excellent reputationRamtin[e] has an excellent reputationRamtin[e] has an excellent reputationRamtin[e] has an excellent reputation
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
The answer is yes.

Italian is an official language in Switzerland. So the Bund cannot force Italians to learn another language of Switzerland.

In German Switzerland: most people from Iberia and Italy speak fluently the local language / dialect. Besides many are also fluent in French (Italians) and French / Italian (Iberians)!
Every Portuguese I met in Zürich speaks perfect Züritüütsch and French.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ramtin[e] for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 5,118
Groaned at 189 Times in 148 Posts
Thanked 6,084 Times in 3,289 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post

In German Switzerland: most people from Iberia and Italy speak fluently the local language / dialect. Besides many are also fluent in French (Italians) and French / Italian (Iberians)!
Every Portuguese I met in Zürich speaks perfect Züritüütsch and French.
Anecdotal evidence?
I think everybody can or should accept they have a treaty with CH and that's it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,654
Groaned at 152 Times in 118 Posts
Thanked 9,578 Times in 3,220 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
There may be a treaty with certain countries which are exempt from this condition but stripping it back to its bottom line, it's still treating some EU countries, which are essentially in the same band and therefore equal, with unfair advantages.

Personally it wouldn't affect me as I'm now Swiss and I speak German / understand the dialect, plus I can still make sense when I'm tiddly (the real test!) but I can understand how some would view it as unfair.
Some EU countries are treated like non-Eu countries by a non-Eu country. How can that be unfair?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 16.03.2014, 11:01
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 144
Groaned at 15 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 52 Times in 37 Posts
TradeTicker is considered a nuisanceTradeTicker is considered a nuisanceTradeTicker is considered a nuisance
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

If you want to draw some clues from existing C permit requirement for non EU :
Zurich canton - need Zertifikat Deutsch ( B1)
Zug canton - A2
Schwyz - A2

Thanks
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank TradeTicker for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 16.03.2014, 11:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 3,832
Groaned at 93 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 5,376 Times in 2,002 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Yeah...but some people have a talent for language learning and others don't. My German is OK and is definitely more than ordering a meal, but I was thinking of restarting classes in the autumn just to get my level up for job interviews and the like, plus I'd like to have a better level of written German for if and when we apply for citizenship.

The Volkshochschule has a little self-test on their website to figure out where your level is at before you sign up for classes. I really had to think about when to use dative and accusative and get the adjective endings correct - so my written level is probably in need of attention. But I got the feeling that passing A2 is not that easy unless you have taken classes.

I am in total agreement with the notion that you should try to learn the local language but changing the goalposts with the C permit and using it as yet another stick with which to beat foreigners is a bit poor.

Luckily we already got our C permits many years ago - but in the light of the Masseneinwanderung vote, I wonder if renewals of existing C permits will also eventually get tied to additional conditions like the language testing.

Cheers,
Nick

Quote:
View Post
You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.
__________________

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank nickatbasel for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 16.03.2014, 11:50
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zug, CH
Posts: 2,840
Groaned at 155 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 5,382 Times in 1,839 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Yeah...but some people have a talent for language learning and others don't.
Some people have half a brain and others don't. I'm American, for crying out loud, and even I learned German to the b2/c1 level pretty easily.

I don't get why it's a problem for the Swiss to want people who apply for a permanent residence permit to speak the local language well enough to get by. If you can't speak it, stick with your B permit and be happy.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 16.03.2014, 12:17
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Was Belgium now Neuchâtel
Posts: 8,221
Groaned at 60 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 10,241 Times in 4,924 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Although at one time, long ago, my Flemish was at A2 level... I wonder if I still have my class certificates. Would that help? Apparently it's similar.
Ooh I've got one of those too ( unless I threw it away when we moved). It could be worth a try I guess given the similarities between the languages.
I's love to see the reaction of my friendly commune lady when she tried to read that.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 16.03.2014, 15:24
oferet's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 112
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 51 Times in 30 Posts
oferet has no particular reputation at present
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Hi All,

In canton BL, it happened to our friends (non-EU) that they were denied of a C-permit because the clerk addressed their child in German and the child was shy and didn’t reply.

Please excuse me for not being able to reveal more details.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank oferet for this useful post:
  #78  
Old 16.03.2014, 17:18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SZ
Posts: 417
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 341 Times in 179 Posts
dmarkd has earned some respectdmarkd has earned some respect
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
Hi All,

In canton BL, it happened to our friends (non-EU) that they were denied of a C-permit because the clerk addressed their child in German and the child was shy and didn’t reply.

Please excuse me for not being able to reveal more details.
This reminds me of the old Not the Nine o'clock news sketch, where Griff Rhys Jones was Constable Savage and was slightly over zealous in his work, including such gems as arresting someone for 'looking at me in a funny way'
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dmarkd for this useful post:
  #79  
Old 16.03.2014, 17:27
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,593
Groaned at 384 Times in 201 Posts
Thanked 1,122 Times in 721 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Alot of bullshit
Quote:
View Post
Since I could not find any info on the site, just thought to let people know that EU, or at least the British, need a Start Deutsch 2 language certificate (like the one from Goethe Institute I imagine) to be eligible for the C Permit in Kanton Zürich. It was confirmed to me by the Migrationsamt office in Zürich yesterday.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 16.03.2014, 18:57
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,439
Groaned at 178 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,551 Times in 765 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of manyDack Rambo has earned the respect of many
Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quote:
View Post
I am in total agreement with the notion that you should try to learn the local language but changing the goalposts with the C permit and using it as yet another stick with which to beat foreigners is a bit poor.

Luckily we already got our C permits many years ago - but in the light of the Masseneinwanderung vote, I wonder if renewals of existing C permits will also eventually get tied to additional conditions like the language testing.

Cheers,
Nick
Exactly, this is just harassment and has nothing to do with "integrating" foreigners.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
eu c permit, language requirement




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Language Requirements for EU/EFTA applicants, C-Permit [ Kt. Zug ] The_Love_Doctor Permits/visas/government 49 14.08.2014 13:09
Does this mean not necessary for brits [language requirement for permit] fptrader Permits/visas/government 36 23.07.2014 19:39
Non EU and Non American : Language requirement for C Permit after 10 years ZH Canton shrineha Permits/visas/government 19 01.02.2013 23:54
crazy language requirement for C permit profetas Permits/visas/government 43 07.12.2012 10:12
Language requirement for new work permits raja4u Permits/visas/government 10 16.10.2009 13:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0