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  #121  
Old 18.03.2014, 00:13
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I speak C2 level German which I learned before becoming here. In fact I can confidently say that I speak better Hochdeutsch than many Swiss. What bugs me is the Swiss asking for certification in a language that they themselves do not speak.
Maybe it's your arrogance and not their German that's the problem?

Everybodey who grows up in German speaking Switzerland is exposed to "Hochdeutsch" since their earliest childhood. Everybody (expect maybe the ones who do the most basic manual jobs) uses "Hochdeutsch" everyday. It's true that many Swiss seem a bit "clumsy" if they use "Hochdeutsch" orally, as they don't speak it that often (or they want to sound "Swiss", to emphasise that they are not German...), but that does not mean, that they don't speak "Hochdeutsch". They are native speakers. The problem is that they themself thinkt that there Hochdeutsch is inferor to the "Hochdeutsch" of a German. Thus comfronted with somebody with north German accent they may refuse to speak in "Hochdeutsch" at all and only speak Swiss German. The situation is however totally differnt if the other person is clearly identifiable as a non-native speaker of German.

Thus maybe A2 Geman is indeed more useful then C2 German...
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  #122  
Old 18.03.2014, 00:34
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Maybe it's your arrogance and not their German that's the problem?
What problem would that be?
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  #123  
Old 18.03.2014, 02:04
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I speak C2 level German which I learned before becoming here. In fact I can confidently say that I speak better Hochdeutsch than many Swiss. What bugs me is the Swiss asking for certification in a language that they themselves do not speak.
In non work situations, I usually speak English to avoid being mistaken for a German. I find I get a much more positive reaction that way.
Really? I've been told off by Southern Germans because my Hochdeutsch sounds "too Hochdeutsch", i.e. like they talk on German TV when doing the news. So we really can't win.

What bugs me is people who consider the natives of the country they live in as some sort of inconvenient side-effect. I study the language of places where I go on holiday; surely people can manage to learn the language of their country of residence.
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  #124  
Old 18.03.2014, 06:14
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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What problem would that be?
Shall we start a list? I suggest we make reading comprehension the second point.

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Really? I've been told off by Southern Germans because my Hochdeutsch sounds "too Hochdeutsch", i.e. like they talk on German TV when doing the news. So we really can't win.
Well, what southern Germans speak is closer to Swiss German than it is to high German at times, but the point is that you have the same problem in any language. A Brit speaking hooty falooty English in rural Alabama would certainly be treated as an outsider.

But I agree with your statement. Why would you go abroad if you're afraid to learn a language? If your job options were so limited that it was your only way to advance, then you should consider learning a new skill or two anyway. If it's just to see the mountains... Go to the US, they've got mountains there, and some of the native can get by in English.
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  #125  
Old 18.03.2014, 06:35
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Quite a few confusions here. Hochdeutsch exist in at least three versions: Northern, Southern and Eastern. But nothing that can bother any of the non native expats in this forum. Just learn what ever you can, it will do.

As for a non native claiming being better in German than most Swiss, it's just ridiculous. I see everyday students speaking horribly Highgerman writing essays at a level of language proficiency non natives can only dream of. Even with alleged C2. The tone explain most of communication problems in most cultures, it's not the level of language that matters that much. The Zürcher don't communicate well with other Swiss either…

As for the core of the matter : Swiss are not bad in German, they just have no eloquence whatsoever in Highgerman. They never practice it either when it's daily fun for most Germans from Flensburg to Lörrach. It's not a language problem as such, it's what they do with it.
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  #126  
Old 18.03.2014, 10:04
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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If it's just to see the mountains... Go to the US, they've got mountains there, and some of the native can get by in English.
Don't I need a permit to live in the US?
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  #127  
Old 18.03.2014, 10:19
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

All countries have requirements for people who wish to have long term residence in them. Those requirements are, by necessity, utterly arbitrary. Why, for example, can most B Permit holders apply for a C Permit after five years, and not four or six? Who knows? Who cares?


A language proficiency requirement for a C Permit is no more or less arbitrary than any other requirement. Being fluent in a local language doesn't mean that one is any more or less useful than someone who doesn't speak a word, but you've got to have some hoops to jump through, else there'd be no point having a C Permit at all.


Just FYI, when I got my C Permit in Glarnerland last year, I wasn't required to provide evidence of proficiency in German, although I was required to provide a criminal record (or evidence of a lack thereof), a report from the Debt Registry and a statement that I'd never fallen on social support. I'm an EU citizen.
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  #128  
Old 18.03.2014, 10:24
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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As for a non native claiming being better in German than most Swiss, it's just ridiculous.
Take the example of the "Konjunktiv II". Many (lesser educated) Germans have difficulty using this correctly. It's not unreasonable to suggest that a non native speaker who had studied the use of the Konjunktiv II would be better at applying in oral speech than a native speaker who had not attended a Gymnasium.
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  #129  
Old 18.03.2014, 10:36
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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In fact I can confidently say that I speak better Hochdeutsch than many Swiss.
I speak better English than many alleged native English speakers. What language do you suggest I speak to them?

Swiss German is a bit of an anomaly today. Most national languages were created when a central government chose one particular dialect to form the basis of the standard; such as Tuscan Italian. German, or Hochdeutsch, is slightly different, in that it was an invented language, originally meant only as a written and not spoken language to facilitate trade between the various German states - people wrote and read in Hochdeutsch and spoke in their local dialect, just like the Swiss do today.

With German unification Hochdeutsch was pushed as a spoken language, by the Prussians, something that was not possible in Switzerland because of the different nature of government here. Nonetheless, there are plenty of Germans who are still visibly uncomfortable where it comes to speaking Hochdeutsch today as local dialects are still the lingua franca in many parts of the country.

So what bugs you is something which is an uniquely Swiss quirk of history. You sound like many, especially northern, Germans when they first come here and complain that the Swiss speak bad German because naturally there is only one right way to do language and this is to standardize it. Bizzarely, had they picked a dialect and called it a language, it's easier to accept for some.

But this isn't Germany. Get over it.
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What bugs me is the Swiss asking for certification in a language that they themselves do not speak.
Actually they're treating us in exactly the same way as they treat themselves. They have to learn a language that they themselves do not speak too, in school. And while they don't speak it, they write in it. And read it.
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In non work situations, I usually speak English to avoid being mistaken for a German. I find I get a much more positive reaction that way.
Or you could migrate your Hochdeutsch to Schweizerdeutsch? Even just the vocabulary. Instead of saying bisschen, say bitsli. Or Billet instead of Fahrkarte. Or danke vielmal instead of dankeschön. I find that approach works a lot better than English.
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  #130  
Old 18.03.2014, 10:46
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I speak better English than many alleged native English speakers. What language do you suggest I speak to them?
Given your aggressive tone, I imagine that most people would prefer that you didn't speak with them at all.
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  #131  
Old 18.03.2014, 11:04
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Given your aggressive tone, I imagine that most people would prefer that you didn't speak with them at all.
Ad hominems tend to be the final defence of those who cannot defend their own arguments.
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  #132  
Old 18.03.2014, 11:31
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Shall we start a list? I suggest we make reading comprehension the second point.



Well, what southern Germans speak is closer to Swiss German than it is to high German at times, but the point is that you have the same problem in any language. A Brit speaking hooty falooty English in rural Alabama would certainly be treated as an outsider.

But I agree with your statement. Why would you go abroad if you're afraid to learn a language? If your job options were so limited that it was your only way to advance, then you should consider learning a new skill or two anyway. If it's just to see the mountains... Go to the US, they've got mountains there, and some of the native can get by in English.
1. The inhabitants of rural Alabama are mostly illiterates with life expectancies in their early 30s.
2. If not for the artificial requirement to learn a language created by the C-permit requirements there would be no requirement to learn a language because if there were a requirement, that language would be learned.
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  #133  
Old 18.03.2014, 11:57
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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1. The inhabitants of rural Alabama are mostly illiterates with life expectancies in their early 30s.
You may want to check your facts on those two claims:

Literacy: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/estimates/stateestimates.aspx
Life Expectancy: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/u...by-county-male
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2. If not for the artificial requirement to learn a language created by the C-permit requirements there would be no requirement to learn a language because if there were a requirement, that language would be learned.
It's a little difficult to decipher what you're trying to say, but in a nutshell, are you suggesting that 'market forces' would cause people to learn the language if there were a 'need'?

If so, there's more to it than a simple 'need'. For example, integration has repeatedly failed in many European countries, leading to ghettoisation and the development of foreign enclaives that have failed to integrate into mainstream society. With this, numerous social ills have exhibited themselves, including economic marginalisation and crime (radicalization of the youth of such communities is a direct consequence of the failure to integrate).

Why did integration fail? Because there was no immediate 'need' for newcomers to integrate. Nonetheless, the long term effects have been such that it has become clear that short-term 'need' was a poor determinant for what was ultimately 'needed' in the long-term.
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  #134  
Old 18.03.2014, 12:22
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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You may want to check your facts on those two claims:

Literacy: http://nces.ed.gov/naal/estimates/stateestimates.aspx
Life Expectancy: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/u...by-county-male
American websites, authored by illiterates with life expectancies in their early thirties.


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It's a little difficult to decipher what you're trying to say, but in a nutshell, are you suggesting that 'market forces' would cause people to learn the language if there were a 'need'?

If so, there's more to it than a simple 'need'. For example, integration has repeatedly failed in many European countries, leading to ghettoisation and the development of foreign enclaives that have failed to integrate into mainstream society. With this, numerous social ills have exhibited themselves, including economic marginalisation and crime (radicalization of the youth of such communities is a direct consequence of the failure to integrate).

Why did integration fail? Because there was no immediate 'need' for newcomers to integrate. Nonetheless, the long term effects have been such that it has become clear that short-term 'need' was a poor determinant for what was ultimately 'needed' in the long-term.
Do you feel British people not learning to speak mundart will lead to British youth radicalisation?
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  #135  
Old 18.03.2014, 12:28
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Quite a few confusions here. Hochdeutsch exist in at least three versions: Northern, Southern and Eastern.
There are three different versions of Standard-Deutsch - for Austria, Germany, Switzerland.

The dialects (on top of that) are a completely different matter.

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As for the core of the matter : Swiss are not bad in German, they just have no eloquence whatsoever in Highgerman. They never practice it either when it's daily fun for most Germans from Flensburg to Lörrach. It's not a language problem as such, it's what they do with it.
There are plenty of people whose native language has the word "German" in it - and who do not have any eloquence whatsoever in the (country's) standard version of that German language.

From that perspective, the challenges everyone here seems to have with Swiss German apply equally well to the dialect spectrum all over the rest of the region where German is the native language. Try to sit in a rural area, in a pub, and see how much of the German spoken there you "get", even if the aborigines try.
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  #136  
Old 18.03.2014, 12:29
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Anyone know if these requirements will be extended to French-speaking cantons, perhaps even retroactively? My parents have had a C permit for years, are due for renewal next year, and I doubt their French would cut the mustard.
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Old 18.03.2014, 12:30
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Anyone know if these requirements will be extended to French-speaking cantons, perhaps even retroactively? My parents have had a C permit for years, are due for renewal next year, and I doubt their French would cut the mustard.
Are you parents radicalised?
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Old 18.03.2014, 12:38
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Are you parents radicalised?
Yes, double agents waiting for Putin to rescue them Crimea-style.
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  #139  
Old 18.03.2014, 12:45
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Yes, double agents waiting for Putin to rescue them Crimea-style.
This will be easy since they already live in their Ghetto.
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Old 18.03.2014, 12:59
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Anyone know if these requirements will be extended to French-speaking cantons, perhaps even retroactively? My parents have had a C permit for years, are due for renewal next year, and I doubt their French would cut the mustard.
Doesn't seem that way at the moment in Neuchatel at least.
OH didn't even need the debt register extract or proof he wasn't on social aid or had received unemployment benefit either. He just filled in the form and got the C permit a week later. This was in January this year.
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