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  #141  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:08
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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American websites, authored by illiterates with life expectancies in their early thirties.
Given these illiterate Americans most likely managed to also produce the CPU in the computer you're typing on, I suspect that the information on those Web sites is a little more credible than your own unsubstantiated opinion.
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Do you feel British people not learning to speak mundart will lead to British youth radicalisation?
Well, despite your point being a strawman, if you're British yourself, given some of your views, you're kind of already well on your way to that goal.
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This will be easy since they already live in their Ghetto.
Oddly many Anglophone expats are already ghettoised. Without the ability to fully communicate with their community here in Switzerland they will tend to only socialize with other Anglophones and cannot access the same sources of information, in the local language, as those who speak the local language. I'm often amazed by the complete ignorance that some have of even basic day-to-day practicalities, despite having lived here for decades.

It may not be the traditional image of a ghetto, and perhaps closer to a gated community, but the result is the same; a subculture living in parallel to the native population, never really integrating and thus at a permanent disadvantage.

The saving grace is that their children do tend to integrate, and when they don't they generally leave to return 'home' because they're at such a disadvantage here.
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  #142  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:17
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Well, despite your point being a strawman, if you're British yourself, given some of your views, you're kind of already well on your way to that goal.
Do you mean Straw Man?







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Oddly many Anglophone expats are already ghettoised. Without the ability to fully communicate with their community here in Switzerland they will tend to only socialize with other Anglophones and cannot access the same sources of information, in the local language, as those who speak the local language. I'm often amazed by the complete ignorance that some have of even basic day-to-day practicalities, despite having lived here for decades.

It may not be the traditional image of a ghetto, and perhaps closer to a gated community, but the result is the same; a subculture living in parallel to the native population, never really integrating and thus at a permanent disadvantage.

The saving grace is that their children do tend to integrate, and when they don't they generally leave to return 'home' because they're at such a disadvantage here.
Swiss society is non-existent - it's a composite of hundreds of different societies usually centred around a village. Whether by language, culture, history or religion, Switzerland is one of the world's most heterogeneous places and while certainly a State, almost inarguably not a Nation State.

There is nothing to integrate into.


Here's a nice discussion on the topic.

http://www.wolf-linder.ch/wp-content...migration6.pdf
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  #143  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:20
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Hmmm, has anyone else noticed that an anagram of 'TreesAreHalal' is 'I R Trollolol'.

Ok, that isn't true, but let's stop feeding our dendrophagic chum, eh?
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  #144  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:22
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Hmmm, has anyone else noticed that an anagram of 'TreesAreHalal' is 'I R Trollolol'.

Ok, that isn't true, but let's stop feeding our dendrophagic chum, eh?
I've supported my points with scholarly articles. Can you point to a place where I've "trolled", or is that your Go To when you're not quite able to grasp things? Do you accuse thicker books of being trolls too? Are PhD courses trolling you?
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  #145  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:29
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I've supported my points with scholarly articles.
Where?
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  #146  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:34
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

The article you linked is very interesting Treesarehala, and I will print it out and read again. It does however seem to go against your statement that there is nothing to integrate into- and that learning the language of your area, is not important.

There is a huge difference between integrating, and keeping your own culture too- and assimilation. Our Italian friends here, for instance, are very well integrated, and yet still keep their own culture and community. They had to learn the language and integrate to get on in life- but still feel it is important to keep close ties with their roots. The 3rd generation much less so though.
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  #147  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:40
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Oddly many Anglophone expats are already ghettoised. Without the ability to fully communicate with their community here in Switzerland they will tend to only socialize with other Anglophones and cannot access the same sources of information, in the local language, as those who speak the local language. I'm often amazed by the complete ignorance that some have of even basic day-to-day practicalities, despite having lived here for decades.
Who are these people? And where are they?


I don't think I've met any of these mysterious, unicorn-like monolingual anglos I keep reading about.


Do they actually exist?
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  #148  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:43
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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The article you linked is very interesting Treesarehala, and I will print it out and read again. It does however seem to go against your statement that there is nothing to integrate into- and that learning the language of your area, is not important.

There is a huge difference between integrating, and keeping your own culture too- and assimilation. Our Italian friends here, for instance, are very well integrated, and yet still keep their own culture and community. They had to learn the language and integrate to get on in life- but still feel it is important to keep close ties with their roots. The 3rd generation much less so though.
Learning the language can be important, and arguably there is definitely something to integrate into. However I would argue that learning the language isn't important for everyone and there will be some people who can contribute huge amounts to their locality and gain huge amounts from their locality without learning the language. The example I would give would be a CEO/high level operative of a multi-national. Someone who is here long term but definitely not permanently and would not have the time to learn another language and who does not need it for his/her work.

As for integration, it's possible to integrate but in my opinion, not into Switzerland. From my experience, the strongest feeling of identity one gets in Switzerland is affiliation to ones village. It's because of this that it's very difficult for a British person who doesn't live in a village, for example one who lives in Zurich, to attempt to properly integrate. I have even found examples of native annoyance at foreign attempts to learn Swiss German (even this isn't a real language but a bracket of many different dialects) and the suggestion has been to learn High German because mundart is "ours".
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  #149  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:49
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Do they actually exist?
I've met a few at this stage. In reality, there's very few because those who decide to stay here tend to make an effort to integrate and those who have no interest in doing so tend only to stay a few years before moving on.

However, I've met a few in the north-east of the country; one particular couple who have lived here for 18 years and can barely speak a word of German, Swiss or otherwise, and had (for example) never heard of Jass.

Worst example I've come across wasn't an Anglophone though - Italian (40+ years and almost no German).
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  #150  
Old 18.03.2014, 13:58
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I've met a few at this stage.
I feel then, that this might be nothing more than

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your own unsubstantiated opinion.
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  #151  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:00
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

At least I don't arrogantly claim that it is a fact, as you do.
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  #152  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:09
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Learning the language can be important, and arguably there is definitely something to integrate into. However I would argue that learning the language isn't important for everyone and there will be some people who can contribute huge amounts to their locality and gain huge amounts from their locality without learning the language. The example I would give would be a CEO/high level operative of a multi-national. Someone who is here long term but definitely not permanently and would not have the time to learn another language and who does not need it for his/her work.

As for integration, it's possible to integrate but in my opinion, not into Switzerland. From my experience, the strongest feeling of identity one gets in Switzerland is affiliation to ones village. It's because of this that it's very difficult for a British person who doesn't live in a village, for example one who lives in Zurich, to attempt to properly integrate. I have even found examples of native annoyance at foreign attempts to learn Swiss German (even this isn't a real language but a bracket of many different dialects) and the suggestion has been to learn High German because mundart is "ours".
I can of course see that someone sent by their company short term would not have the inclination to learn the language, or indeed 'integrate', whatever that means. But then they do not need a 'C' permit either- and to my mind, will be the losers imho- which I agree they will not see this way. And that's ok. Even if I lived for a few months in a country- I would learn to communicate at basic level, out of courtesy and respect- and for my own development. We are not talking about intricate Grammar and vocab here btw. To me, it just makes human sense- and could make such a difference as to the perception of local people- be it in CH or anywhere.
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  #153  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:15
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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At least I don't arrogantly claim that it is a fact, as you do.
Goodness! Point it out and I will immediately recant!
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  #154  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:19
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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At least I don't arrogantly claim that it is a fact, as you do.
Not the first time TAH has been called that.
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  #155  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:22
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Who are these people? And where are they?


I don't think I've met any of these mysterious, unicorn-like monolingual anglos I keep reading about.


Do they actually exist?
I know several. I don't think it's that uncommon, especially for trailing spouses.
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  #156  
Old 18.03.2014, 14:25
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Not the first time TAH has been called that.
Different strokes. When a Scot claims to be able to write his own name he gets called uppity.
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  #157  
Old 18.03.2014, 18:29
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Take the example of the "Konjunktiv II". Many (lesser educated) Germans have difficulty using this correctly.
My guess is, you mean Konjunktiv 1. The K2 is naturally build with würde nowadays, no difficulty whatsoever and the few verbs that just sound ridiculous with würde are so often used, German speakers don't waste a millisecond on thinking before doing it right. If you mean the apophotical forms of Konjunktiv 2 of strong verbs, I'd say it's sociolectal: the more educated, the less hesitation. And it's ridiculous to say früge nowadays anyway…

Even if you mean Konjunktiv 1, (er wisse, ich sei, ihr gebet…) it takes longer to an educated non native to get it right in speech than it takes for a normal German or Swiss or Austrian gymnasiast to show off with it in literature class. Not that the native would use it in daily life for any other purpose than hope of a better grade in German, we agree on that.

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There are three different versions of Standard-Deutsch - for Austria, Germany, Switzerland.
Yea, but if you can't identify three main "coloring" of High German in Germany, I can. The eastern version is fading away, I admit that.
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  #158  
Old 21.03.2014, 00:49
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

I've just done my 8th Fasnacht with the Basler Mittwoch Gesellschaft Runzle. Is that integrated enough? If not I will go straight to the Kreisbüro and play Morgenstraich on piccolo for them. The long version.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 21.03.2014, 04:54
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Many good/bad points here,

I understand the I work in English/the trailing spouse/the 'they want to learn' English arguments,but...

To be ABLE to walk into the local shops/doctors/dentist/schools/bus/cinema/restaurant/bar.The list is endless but priceless - its basic communication but TALKING!!

Don't forget a permit C is a residence permit. If talking the local language is not for you/too difficult (after 5 years) stay with a permit B - it really doesn't change much.
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Old 21.03.2014, 06:19
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

I'm sure this is an old argument at this forum, so is there another thread where it is discussed on the best way for workers in English-speaking environments and trailing spouses to become competent in the local language? That is, assuming they want to.

(I say "competent" because it sounds as if this "C" permit doesn't require complete fluency, but rather intermediate language skills.)
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