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Old 14.06.2014, 21:45
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Living in California - please comment/advise

Hi
trying to tap into knowledge and wisdom of this great forum (I mean it folks )

I have been living in Switzerland for over 10 years now, received my passport 3 years ago, and have a job which is rewarding both financially and intellectually, and since about a year living in my own house (just across the border from Basel), married with 3 kids (school age)

Recently, we had a chance to spend 5 months in the Bay Area (east bay). Everyone in the family absolutely loved the experience. We were very impressed by the quality and engagement at the school (most of public schools where we lived, were ranked either 9/10, 10/10 according to California ranking), ease of living (plenty of shops, open all week round), friendliness of the people both in private setting, and in shops, restaurants.

The weather was a big plus, I am not a big fan of rain or snow, so absolutely loved the warm weather. The good thing was since it was warm (to a comfortable level) one could go out late at night, and sort of had more energy to do so. Being able to go to the beach on weekends, amazing sports facilities (family membership of Club Sports for 260 USD, and that included 5 hours of childcare every day while we attended gym or other trainings, swimming pools etc)

and countless possibilities for food, going out etc.

Now we are back in Basel since a week or so, and adjusting to slightly different life style (no issues, will tune down our expectations)

If I would want, we could go back to California for few years, have some comparable job offers in hand. Since I am in technology sector, so Bay area obviously has plenty to offer in terms of exposure and learning.

what you guys think? I know it is pretty personal choice. What could be potential downsides ? For me, if kids are going to good schools where they have opportunities to realise their full potential, financial situation is comparable (or even slightly better), weather is excellent (I love warm weather), and going to beach is not a 10 hours drive, thrice a year exercise; then rest of things could be worked out

and yes, we managed to make friends with a number of families in that short time, and had excellent socialisation experience.

All in all, I would say that we were very comfortable and happy during our short stay, and would love to go back.

I see many californians who have opted to live in this part of the world, so would really appreciate your impressions/feedback as well.

and folks; thanks for reading this pretty long post

Last edited by Newbee; 14.06.2014 at 21:48. Reason: typo
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Old 15.06.2014, 04:03
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

Only you (and you family) can make that decision.

I was born in Switzerland and lived there for 23 years; I have lived in California (San Francisco peninsula) for 57 years. On the basis of what I read in EF, I would find it very difficult to return to Switzerland.

So if you move to California for a few years, you may have some real difficulties moving back to Switzerland.
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Old 15.06.2014, 06:19
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advis

My experience is living in Berkeley.

While I do recommend living there you did ask about potential downsides. They include:
1. Personal safety, crime.
2. Education - a challenge to find comparable pre university schools.
3. Politics.
4. Not being in Switzerland.
5. Red tape, sometimes time consuming to get a visa .
6. Marginal taxation of approximately 50 per cent, which may continue even after leaving the United States, if you live there long enough.

If you are somewhere else in the east bay other than Berkeley add lack of culture to the mix.

Finally, commute times if your employer is in the Silicon Valley instead of the east bay, although there are numerous tech jobs in the east bay as well.

Last edited by moi; 15.06.2014 at 06:21. Reason: Clarity
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Old 15.06.2014, 07:28
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

My daughter moved to California in January.

While she likes it (she lives 400m from the beach in MB), she still says that when she gets to the point of having kids, she will return to TI.

Tom
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Old 15.06.2014, 08:56
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

It's really a question of do you ever see yourself leaving the US once you've moved there? Because once you enter the US tax system you'll find it very difficult to leave. US citizens/Green Card holders are subject to US tax no matter where in the world they live so if you returned here as either you'd need to continue to file US tax returns and might owe both federal and state taxes on top of Swiss ones. Only by renouncing US citizenship could you lose this or as a Green Card Holder you have to fill in a form to make sure you relinquish your card properly; it's no good just letting it expire as that makes no difference for US tax purposes. Should you return you'd also need to allow your Swiss bank to pass on your account info to the IRS as a citizen/GCholder.

I'd also point out that while the weather was nice at the time you were there, it's now going to get hotter and hotter and won't be as comfortable. You were actually there in what is supposed to be their wet season. California is suffering its worst drought conditions in history:

http://mashable.com/2014/04/24/silic...ought-monitor/

You could find water supplies restricted and obviously the risk of wildfires is increasing daily. Add in the possibility of earthquakes as well because sooner or later a big one is going to hit.
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Old 15.06.2014, 11:04
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

As a former Bay Area resident, I agree with SwissPete. Don't go to California unless you plan to not come back. You might not be happy after coming back. My wife grew up in Switzerland, and spent 8 years in the Bay Area. After moving back here 6 years ago, she still has a hard time adjusting back to Switzerland. It depends upon the person, of course. But just be prepared.

Dan
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Old 15.06.2014, 11:13
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

I'm originally from Southern California (not the Bay Area, but I'll still venture to comment!). I just moved to Swtizerland two weeks ago so I won't have too much by way of comparison, but I think California is a great place if you have the money, and it sounds like you will. Personally I find sales tax and tip not being included one of the biggest pains in the ass about living in the US in general. Of course if your school-age children decide to attend US colleges and universities (if you stay long-term) you're looking at spending LOTTTS of money (esp as a relatively well-off person) that I assume you wouldn't have to pay as much of here in Switzerland or Europe.

Also, as I'm sure you know, public transportation is not as developed in the US in general, especially for longer distances, Amtrak is laughable compared to SBB.

Best of luck with the decision!!
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Old 15.06.2014, 11:50
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

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Hi
trying to tap into knowledge and wisdom of this great forum (I mean it folks )

I have been living in Switzerland for over 10 years now, received my passport 3 years ago, and have a job which is rewarding both financially and intellectually, and since about a year living in my own house (just across the border from Basel), married with 3 kids (school age)

Recently, we had a chance to spend 5 months in the Bay Area (east bay). ...

All in all, I would say that we were very comfortable and happy during our short stay, and would love to go back.

I see many californians who have opted to live in this part of the world, so would really appreciate your impressions/feedback as well.

and folks; thanks for reading this pretty long post
I thought that if you got a Swiss pasport and then went to live outside Switzerland for more than a certain amount of time (4 years I think) they will ask for the pasport back.
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Old 15.06.2014, 12:00
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

Thanks folks ...

one of the main reason holding me back is precisely what was stated e.g. may be we would not like to come back, or would have hard time re-adjusting after a longer time out.

The dilemma is the while on long term, living in Switzerland is obviously better, on day to day basis I found many things which made us happy/comfortable while we were in Bay area.

Schooling was another important factor, I know that in US location of schools have a great influence on the quality; almost all schools in location we were living in were/are excellent. During 5 months, we were contacted by the teachers of our 2 kids more than 300 times, discussing various aspects of their education. In the initial weeks, my kids were given laptops so that they are able to translate from french to english (they did not spoke a word of english before), and are able to communicate during teaching/learning sessions.

We also liked the social aspect of schooling e.g. kids ice cream parties, various other learning/charity activities. This was a huge contrast to our experience with Swiss and French schools. I mean, we do not have language issue here in Switzerland, I could imagine that non-french/german speaking kids would not have a smooth entry into public schools here.

Another aspect was that Bay area is big melting pot of cultures, so a real multi-cultural experience for kids as they grow-up.

and yes, summer gets a little warm, but I would think that long winter weeks in this part of the world are as un-comfortable as well.

I am thinking to spend next 6-9 months to carefully consider various aspects before heading back for few years (like everyone else who decided to go there for few years )
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Old 15.06.2014, 12:01
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

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I thought that if you got a Swiss pasport and then went to live outside Switzerland for more than a certain amount of time (4 years I think) they will ask for the pasport back.
According to my knowledge this is for permit C, and not for passport; I might be wrong
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Old 15.06.2014, 13:08
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

You can only lose Swiss citizenship if you request it or do something detrimental to Switzerland's interests/reputation.

Art. 42

1 A Swiss citizen shall on request be relieved of his or her Swiss citizenship if he or she is not resident in Switzerland and holds or has been assured of another nationality. For minors, Article 34 applies mutatis mutandis.

2 Relief is granted by the authority in the canton of origin.

3 Loss of cantonal and communal citizenship and thus of Swiss citizenship take effect on service of the certificate of relief of citizenship.

Art. 48

The Federal Office may with consent of the authority in the canton of origin revoke the Swiss, cantonal and communal citizenship of a person holding dual nationality if his or her conduct is seriously detrimental to the interests or the reputation of Switzerland.

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/1/141.0.en.pdf
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Old 15.06.2014, 13:12
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

I would say the drought could be considered a plus for someone moving from Switzerland. Because of it, many restaurants are no longer bringing you water, free and without asking. The shock could prove to be fatal for someone who has lived here for quite a few years.

Dan
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Old 15.06.2014, 13:54
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

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For me, if kids are going to good schools where they have opportunities to realise their full potential....
When my kids leave the house in the morning, I'd like to feel that they are going into a safe environment, where they don't have to worry about their very lives and this to me is not it:

Quote:
It was the 74th school shooting since Adam Lanza's infamous assault on Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut — and, as this map shows, they've happened all over the country.
The other thing is that I would like them to be able reach their potential without it cost me or them an arm or a leg, let alone having to say no, we can't afford it:

Quote:
As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301. About one-quarter of borrowers owe more than $28,000; 10% of borrowers owe more than $54,000; 3% owe more than $100,000; and less than 1%, or 167,000 people, owe more than $200,000. (Source: FRBNY)
So for me the US would be very low on the list when it comes to my kids...
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:01
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

Born and raised in SoCal. If your family agrees and wants to do it then get the hell out while you still can. My wife is too worried about job security (as if it exists here) to move back. I'm tired of the Bunzli mentality, did I say tired? I meant its driving me freaking crazy Droughts, wildfires,earthquakes and Mexican cartels have nothing on these Bunzli drones. I would love to move back but that would mean leaving my two kids behind and that's not going to happen. I can only hope my kids decide to attend a US university in 15+ years. People have done longer jail terms. (of course I do get free weekends in Ticino)
In all honesty CH is not that bad. Its safe, clean and the wages are great. I wouldnt earn as much in the US as I do here the cost of living in Cali is comparable to here but if you can get a good salary then take the leap. Money isnt everything. Despite what you hear on the news the US is a safe country so long as you never venture down into the bad part of town. You also have so much more cultural variety and basically more variety in every single aspect of life. You can live in one of the most open minded cities in the world or...Basel.
The choice is yours and yours alone.

Last edited by California Dreamer; 15.06.2014 at 14:34.
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:13
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

I've only just gotten to CH, so can't offer you the full comparison, but for what it's worth I grew up in the Bay Area. It sounds like you have already addressed what the major issues might be: the public schools are less uniformly good (but in some parts of the Bay Area they are excellent), there isn't as much of a social safety net (but it sounds like you'll be lucky enough to have a well-paying job), and university is getting insanely expensive (while I went to college 2002-2006 at a state school, tuition increased $4000-$6000, and now it's well above $10,000), and you might not get along with the people (but you do). You got a taste when you lived there, but ask yourself how much you like driving, how much you like Americans, and how much you like doing things for yourself.
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:33
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

Only you can tell what is better for you and your family....

I lived in the Bay area for 8 years before moving to Switzerland and things I would consider are:

Do you think you can find as good a school system in an area where you can find reasonable housing?

Are you willing to spend a lot of time in your car? commuting from the east bay is hell...

A melting pot is great but this often reduces the sense of cohesion in a neighbourhood

Do you children what to be driven everywhere and have little or no freedom of their own as they grow up?

Are you willing to increase your tax burden immediately and go on paying Uncle Sam after you leave?

Do you want to find new friends ever couple of years as people cycle into and out of the area?

Are you confident that you will find new jobs if there is a blip in the economy and you are out of a job in the morning?

Do you want to pay US college fees?

Are you okay with the level of violence and crime there?

On the upside the beaches, shopping, nature, and food variety are absolutely brilliant, if you have an offer to do it for a while to do a start up then one might be tempted...

Feel free to PM me if you wish and I am not to be negative just pointing out some of the things I wish I had known before our move from IRL to CA...
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:39
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

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The tax thing...

I'd also point out that while the weather was nice at the time you were there, it's now [the] worst drought conditions in history:

http://mashable.com/2014/04/24/silic...ought-monitor/

...water supplies restricted

...earthquakes as well because sooner or later a big one is going to hit.
Four big picture points that are worth reiterating.

The average person isn't very good at assessing risk. So things like water wars, and plate tectonics don't feature highly in their thinking.

But they are very real and worth considering.

I'd also add that the dollar is dying, as is freedom, in America.

America has become a police state, only a small percentage of their population understands this, but that knowledge is slowly spreading.

And as already mentioned, as much as I loved California, the country itself can be astoundingly arrogant, i.e. demanding you pay taxes even when you don't live there and demanding your financials from banks abroad.

I might go back....CA (southern) is a great place, and you don't have to deal with Swiss dickheads (albeit few and far between)
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:50
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

Just answering this for myself for the fun of it.
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Only you can tell what is better for you and your family....

I lived in the Bay area for 8 years before moving to Switzerland and things I would consider are:

Do you think you can find as good a school system in an area where you can find reasonable housing?
Good question
Are you willing to spend a lot of time in your car? commuting from the east bay is hell...
Bicycle, Bicycle I want to ride my bicycle........or live closer to work or like me work from home.
A melting pot is great but this often reduces the sense of cohesion in a neighbourhood
And that exists here with 90% native Swiss?
Do you children what to be driven everywhere and have little or no freedom of their own as they grow up?
Bicycle, Bicycle
Are you willing to increase your tax burden immediately and go on paying Uncle Sam after you leave?
You can give it up and not pay taxes.
Do you want to find new friends ever couple of years as people cycle into and out of the area?
Waaaaaay easier to find friends in the US vs CH. Way.
Are you confident that you will find new jobs if there is a blip in the economy and you are out of a job in the morning?
can happen anywhere, even here
Do you want to pay US college fees?
Ways around that, not every credit has to come from your chosen university
Are you okay with the level of violence and crime there?
It's something you see on the news but rarely ever in person, crime exists here as well it's just not sensationalized on the nightly news. No news, no crimes. Or just stay away from Oakland, but I hear it's getting better
On the upside the beaches, shopping, nature, and food variety are absolutely brilliant, if you have an offer to do it for a while to do a start up then one might be tempted...
True that. The beaches, the bikinis, the restaurants and bars oh my!
Feel free to PM me if you wish and I am not to be negative just pointing out some of the things I wish I had known before our move from IRL to CA...
If I were in his boat I would personally choose Monterey or Santa Cruz but that's just me as I love that area or anything north of Santa Barbara. L.A is such a shit hole. SF has Napa Valley and not too far from Tahoe. God I love Tahoe.
Thanks, now I'm homesick.
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Old 15.06.2014, 14:56
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

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Do you children what to be driven everywhere and have little or no freedom of their own as they grow up?
This is true for kids until they turn 16 (when they can get driver's licenses). After that, it could be argued that they have a lot more freedom. Children are probably on average less connected with their parents in the U.S. than they are in Europe, and it's worth thinking about what kinds of people your children will be shaped into by the culture and people around them.

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Do you want to find new friends ever couple of years as people cycle into and out of the area?
A related thing to consider is that (in my experience, though there are exceptions) friendships are more easy-come-easy-go than in Europe.

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Are you okay with the level of violence and crime there?
This should not be an issue in the parts of the Bay Area you're talking about. It's obviously not as safe as Switzerland (I'm sure virtually nowhere is), but I'd be more far more worried about car accidents than criminals.
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Old 16.06.2014, 10:16
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Re: Living in California - please comment/advise

This thread has seriously made me consider to move. I'm currently checking out different spots along the CA coastline or even New Paltz, NY (used to live there for a year and liked it a lot). My wife seems to be having a change of heart so if I can come up with a good enough plan then we are outta here! Only problem is the housing in some of the areas I like in Cali are OUTFREAKINGRAGOUS. What happened? Things have changed since the early 90's. Ouch.
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