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  #41  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:07
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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The herbicide they use, glysophate (or RoundUp), has been shown in numerous studies to be safe at the levels normally expected in the food we consume. It actually has a lower toxicity level than clove oil, a.
You are flip-flopping between saying GMO products are superior and saying they are the same. You can't have it both ways.
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  #42  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:07
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Let's wait for the day that organic farmers start refusing to have the organic label stuck on their food, and have this conversation again.

Why are people afraid of giving information to consumers?

This is the crux of the argument.
haha, organic goods sell for more money why would they do that?
As I said before, I wouldn't care if they label them but you have to consider this fear-mongering as well
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  #43  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:11
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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haha, organic goods sell for more money why would they do that?
As I said before, I wouldn't care if they label them but you have to consider this fear-mongering as well
If GMO was so much better, they could sell for more money, no?

What is this fear-mongering of which you speak? The fear that people won't buy your product if you are honest and say what it contains?

So you are saying offering people free choice is bad because they might opt to not buy your stuff?
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  #44  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:13
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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You are flip-flopping between saying GMO products are superior and saying they are the same. You can't have it both ways.
Where the hell did I say that? I stated, correctly, that glysophate is less toxic than clove oil (as an example); glysophate is not a GMO. Are you getting confused?
The only GMO I am aware of that has a distinct nutritional benefit is Golden Rice, which is enginered to synthesise a Vitamin A precursor in the rice kernels. Thereby helping to prevent Vitamin A deficiency (and subsequent blindness) for millions of people worldwide. Monsanto didn't even develop Golden rice, Syngenta did.
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  #45  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:16
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Where the hell did I say that? I stated, correctly, that glysophate is less toxic than clove oil (as an example); glysophate is not a GMO. Are you getting confused?
I haven't a clue what you're trying to get at, but please answer my question. are GMO products the same as conventional ones or are they superior?
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  #46  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:22
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I haven't a clue what you're trying to get at, but please answer my question. are GMO products the same as conventional ones or are they superior?
Obviously
Depends which GMO product we are talking about. You know they're not all the same, don't you?
Foods manufactured using ingredients derived from RoundUp ready crops are, nutritionally, the same.
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  #47  
Old 22.01.2015, 12:26
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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True.

Although weeds are becoming resistant to it though at current levels of use so they'll either need to use it in more powerful doses or develop something else.

Monsanto may not actually sell the 'Terminator seeds' that people think they do but don't they collect royalties on the seeds that they 'force' on third world farmers?
Their tactics in this field are dubious at best and down-right evil at worst.

Although they do collect royalties on the seeds they developed (as with absolutely any patented product), I don't see any evidence of them 'forcing' their products on farmers.
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  #48  
Old 22.01.2015, 13:47
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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If GMO was so much better, they could sell for more money, no?
The quality of the end product has nothing to do whether it was based on GMO produced ingredients or not.
GMO are cheaper because the production costs less, also there are many studies proving that the actual nutrient content of food produced by GMO are better than organic (at the nutrient level) I can pull them out if you are interested on reading them
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  #49  
Old 22.01.2015, 13:51
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

There appears to be plenty of bio products in the shops here, in fact a few times I have had to buy bio because there had been no option for the regular version! Quite different to shops in the UK! having said that, I'm not really in the bio camp so I don't know if the produce would seem like a lot from their point of view. It looks like a lot to me though
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  #50  
Old 22.01.2015, 14:17
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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The quality of the end product has nothing to do whether it was based on GMO produced ingredients or not.
GMO are cheaper because the production costs less, also there are many studies proving that the actual nutrient content of food produced by GMO are better than organic (at the nutrient level) I can pull them out if you are interested on reading them
So it's both just the same and also better, but it's better not to tell the consumer as you wouldn't want people to buy things knowing they are better?

Okay, I'm totally convinced now.
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  #51  
Old 22.01.2015, 14:20
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Although they do collect royalties on the seeds they developed (as with absolutely any patented product), I don't see any evidence of them 'forcing' their products on farmers.
They don't. They just sell the seeds that they develop. No royalties involved.

They try and collect royalties from the farmers who planted Monsanto seeds, and who are using seeds from the parent crop for the next crop (which is what farmers have been doing since the creation of agriculture thousands of years ago).
These farmers are supposed to buy new seeds every year from Monsanto so they're effectively for-ever in their debt.

I doubt any of these third-world farmers knew what they were signing up to when they originally bought the seeds.

I don't have a problem with GM crops. I have a problem with Monsanto.

Can you spot the difference?
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  #52  
Old 22.01.2015, 14:38
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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They don't. They just sell the seeds that they develop. No royalties involved.

They try and collect royalties from the farmers who planted Monsanto seeds, and who are using seeds from the parent crop for the next crop (which is what farmers have been doing since the creation of agriculture thousands of years ago).
These farmers are supposed to buy new seeds every year from Monsanto so they're effectively for-ever in their debt.

I doubt any of these third-world farmers knew what they were signing up to when they originally bought the seeds.

I don't have a problem with GM crops. I have a problem with Monsanto.

Can you spot the difference?

Personally, I think that if farmers buy and use protected property, they should pay for it, regardless of their past practices. One generation later of crops don't free them of someone else's IP. Especially if they want to continue using round-up, they aren't magically free of the science, and R&D that went into developing the crops.
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  #53  
Old 22.01.2015, 14:52
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Personally, I think that if farmers buy and use protected property, they should pay for it, regardless of their past practices. One generation later of crops don't free them of someone else's IP. Especially if they want to continue using round-up, they aren't magically free of the science, and R&D that went into developing the crops.
Pro GMO people often tell us there's no real difference between a GMO crop and a pedigree dog. They say its only a question of how the genes got there, but both are man-made creations.

In that case, should I also pay royalties to the kennels when my Rottweiler has puppies?
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  #54  
Old 22.01.2015, 14:58
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Pro GMO people often tell us there's no real difference between a GMO crop and a pedigree dog. They say its only a question of how the genes got there, but both are man-made creations.

In that case, should I also pay royalties to the kennels when my Rottweiler has puppies?

Sure, if you plan on eating the purest ones of the litter and killing off any impure mutts with a poison which the kennel ensured their purebreds are immune from. I could see them taking royalties.

That might be a valid comparison.
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Old 22.01.2015, 14:59
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Personally, I think that if farmers buy and use protected property, they should pay for it, regardless of their past practices. One generation later of crops don't free them of someone else's IP. Especially if they want to continue using round-up, they aren't magically free of the science, and R&D that went into developing the crops.
As I wrote before, I'm not sure some farmer in rural India may be aware of Monsanto's practices. I;m sure not many of them would have known was IP was either. To them, a sack of seeds is a sack of seeds.

I'm sure most of them would not have bought the initial seeds if they had known what was in store for them.

Do you work in Monsanto PR?
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:04
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Sure, if you plan on eating the purest ones of the litter and killing off any impure mutts with a poison which the kennel ensured their purebreds are immune from. I could see them taking royalties.

That might be a valid comparison.
So you're saying its not the gene as such which Monsanto is claiming IP on, but the fact that their poison doesn't kill something? This would seem a very vague thing to claim to hold IP over.

Either that, or you're making up the arguments as you go along.
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:06
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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As I wrote before, I'm not sure some farmer in rural India may be aware of Monsanto's practices. I;m sure not many of them would have known was IP was either. To them, a sack of seeds is a sack of seeds.

I'm sure most of them would not have bought the initial seeds if they had known what was in store for them.

Do you work in Monsanto PR?
I'm also not sure of if the farmers are aware of it, but I also don't feel that the 'ignorance card' can be played if one is using Round-up and mass producing for export. Of all the cases I've read through, it always seems to be the 'innocent farmer' trying to play dumb, and when it goes through the courts, it's fairly obvious that they know very well what they are doing, and want to use the benefits of such seeds without paying for the work that went into developing them.

Not a Monsanto employee at all.

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So you're saying its not the gene as such which Monsanto is claiming IP on, but the fact that their poison doesn't kill something? This would seem a very vague thing to claim to hold IP over.

Either that, or you're making up the arguments as you go along.
It is the genetics which make the product poison resistant (from how I understand it), it was implied in my tongue-in-cheek comment that the breeders had specifically bred dogs with a genetic resistance---but either-way it was a terrible example to begin with.

A closer legal example would perhaps be a new musician using the bass-line from Vanilla Ice`s: Ice Ice Baby, and refusing to pay royalties to Queen for the original bass line (although it IS different--but that`s a different argument).
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Last edited by Chemmie; 22.01.2015 at 15:17.
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:35
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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So it's both just the same and also better, but it's better not to tell the consumer as you wouldn't want people to buy things knowing they are better?

Okay, I'm totally convinced now.
It is not my responsibility to convince you of anything, and yes they are both safe but nutritionally speaking they are better.
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:45
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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It is not my responsibility to convince you of anything,
So why are you participating in the discussion at all?

Just trolling?

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and yes they are both safe but nutritionally speaking they are better.
Which is why you don't want to label it.

We can't have people chosing to eat things that are better for them. Where would the world come to?
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:48
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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So why are you participating in the discussion at all?

Just trolling?



Which is why you don't want to label it.

We can't have people chosing to eat things that are better for them. Where would the world come to?
I said I did not care about labeling, I am a well educated scientist and cannot be fear-mongered.
And like any scientist, I present my ideas...not to convince but to make people think.

Going back on topic though, you can get organic products practically everywhere in CH. The same way you can find homeopathic medicine (read water that remembers) in any pharmacy.
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