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  #61  
Old 22.01.2015, 16:14
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I said I did not care about labeling, I am a well educated scientist and cannot be fear-mongered.
Sufficiently fear mongered that you seem to believe giving people a choice is a bad thing.

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And like any scientist, I present my ideas...not to convince but to make people think.
Not telling people what's in the food they buy is making them think?

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Going back on topic though, you can get organic products practically everywhere in CH. The same way you can find homeopathic medicine (read water that remembers) in any pharmacy.
What has homeopathy got to do with it?

Other than change the discussion to a topic where you stand a better chance of winning?

Is that what they taught you in your good scientific education?

Are you sure they didn't send you to the Monsanto school for parrots by mistake?
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:21
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I
A closer legal example would perhaps be a new musician using the bass-line from Vanilla Ice`s: Ice Ice Baby, and refusing to pay royalties to Queen for the original bass line (although it IS different--but that`s a different argument).
Actually, a closer example would be a married couple who cannot conceive.

A man donates sperm but charges a fee as he comes from idea 'breeding stock'. They pay him. It makes sense at the time.
The couple conceive and have a baby girl.
She grows up, gets married and has a child in turn with her spouse. The man who donates the original sperm demands royalty fees for this child.
The couple refuse to pay. He had nothing to do with their conception. They've never even met the man.

He says he'll kill their baby unless they pay up.

In a similar fashion, when the next generation of a farming family take on a farm, they're effectively taking on a an everlasting debt to Monsanto.
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  #63  
Old 22.01.2015, 16:28
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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The quality of the end product has nothing to do whether it was based on GMO produced ingredients or not.
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they are both safe but nutritionally speaking they are better.
Is this a flip-flop?
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:45
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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What has homeopathy got to do with it?

Other than change the discussion to a topic where you stand a better chance of winning?

Is that what they taught you in your good scientific education?

Are you sure they didn't send you to the Monsanto school for parrots by mistake?
I believe she was using it as an example. Not a bad one interestingly enough, because loons who are anti-GMO also tend to be anti-vaccine and pro-homeopathy too. Not all, granted, but there is a significant crossover.

I see you and Tom have both regressed to the "Monsanto shill" argument. Pretty much as I expected; you'll be quoting Natural News and Foodbabe next .

As scientists, myself and Angela trust the science-based evidence and methodology that backs GMO products. The burden of proof is on the sceptics to show, unequivocably, that they are harmful.
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:52
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Actually, a closer example would be a married couple who cannot conceive.

A man donates sperm but charges a fee as he comes from idea 'breeding stock'. They pay him. It makes sense at the time.
The couple conceive and have a baby girl.
She grows up, gets married and has a child in turn with her spouse. The man who donates the original sperm demands royalty fees for this child.
The couple refuse to pay. He had nothing to do with their conception. They've never even met the man.

He says he'll kill their baby unless they pay up.

In a similar fashion, when the next generation of a farming family take on a farm, they're effectively taking on a an everlasting debt to Monsanto.

True example, with personable appeal. However one's genetics being personally considered "breeding stock" is not protected by international patent agreements.

If the family would begin to produce, market, and sell gametes from their offspring for further profit, perhaps the story would change.

Similarly (as per the doggy example earlier), commonly when adopting a pure-bred puppy, there is a clause that the offspring must be spayed/neutered to prevent unauthorized breeding/profiteering of the original breeder's work.

If the farmers are using Roundup, they are aware and purposely using the special seeds - a practice not handed down through the generations.
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:53
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I believe she was using it as an example. Not a bad one interestingly enough, because loons who are anti-GMO also tend to be anti-vaccine and pro-homeopathy too. Not all, granted, but there is a significant crossover.
But surely as a scientist you should be aware that correlation is not causation and all that. Dragging up homeopathy was not an attempt to make an intelligent argument but an attempt to paint everybidy with the same broad brush.

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As scientists, myself and Angela trust the science-based evidence and methodology that backs GMO products. The burden of proof is on the sceptics to show, unequivocably, that they are harmful.
I did not actually say they are harmful. I was objecting to Monsanto and Co succesfully resisting attempts to force them to label their products. Conventional food labelling lists many ingedients that are not proven to be harmful, but manufacturers must declare them nevertheless so customers can make a choice.

When challenged on this, Angela several times repeated that she was an educated scientist. Referring to one's own higher intellect is not really a convincing way to bring an argument across. If it was we could replace peer review by IQ tests and say that whatever the smarter scientist claims must be true. Actually, its insulting to others to insinuate they are more stupid.
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:57
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Sufficiently fear mongered that you seem to believe giving people a choice is a bad thing.



Not telling people what's in the food they buy is making them think?



What has homeopathy got to do with it?

Other than change the discussion to a topic where you stand a better chance of winning?

Is that what they taught you in your good scientific education?

Are you sure they didn't send you to the Monsanto school for parrots by mistake?
do you really think you are 'winning' this err conversation? LOL
How many times have you tried to offend me?

I was just giving out an example on how people are given 'choices' here in CH
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:58
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I believe she was using it as an example. Not a bad one interestingly enough, because loons who are anti-GMO also tend to be anti-vaccine and pro-homeopathy too. Not all, granted, but there is a significant crossover.


Is your scientific reasoning at work? Loons who are pro-GMO also tend to be pro-crystal meth and violently racist. Not all, granted, but there is a significant crossover.


(I'm pro-vaccine, anti-homeopathy, and basically would simply appreciate having the choice of knowing what I'm eating and feeding my kids, which is made monstrously difficult by the companies you defend)
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Old 22.01.2015, 17:00
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I see you and Tom have both regressed to the "Monsanto shill" argument. Pretty much as I expected; you'll be quoting Natural News and Foodbabe next .

As scientists, myself and Angela trust the science-based evidence and methodology that backs GMO products. The burden of proof is on the sceptics to show, unequivocably, that they are harmful.
I didn't say I had a problem with GM products. I said I had a problem with Monsanto.
Ask Angela where I stand on homeopathy and alternative medicine.

Actually I think a lot of big North American corporations have appalling ethics and morals.

My wife is a scientist and has done work specifically with glysophate and crop diseases by insects. I think she has questioned the business ethics of Monsanto too and agrees to a certain extent with my view point.

It's not really a question of science though, is it?
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Old 22.01.2015, 17:04
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I didn't say I had a problem with GM products. I said I had a problem with Monsanto.
Ask Angela where I stand on homeopathy and alternative medicine.

Actually I think a lot of big North American corporations have appalling ethics and morals.

My wife is a scientist and has done work with glysophate and crop diseases by insects. I think she has questioned the business ethics of Monsanto too and agrees to a certain extent with my view point.

It's not really a question of science though, is it?
Then at least I misread you because it sounded as you agreed that GMOs should be labeled, weren't you? Also, believe me Tom, I have no recollection on your positions on Homeopathy and such crap...

I cannot say anything about the business practices of Monsanto because I do not know them...at all. But it would not surprise me!
Still denying the science behind Monsanto is not a valid point. Also, there have been no litigations for farmers that use last year's seeds (as some anti GMOists might want you to believe).
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Old 22.01.2015, 17:07
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Also, there have been no litigations for farmers that use last year's seeds (as some anti GMOists might want you to believe).


From Monsanto's Website:


Since 1997, we have only filed suit against farmers 145 times in the United States. This may sound like a lot, but when you consider that we sell seed to more than 250,000 American farmers a year, it’s really a small number. Of these, we’ve proceeded through trial with only eleven farmers. All eleven cases were found in Monsanto’s favor.

I wonder how many farmers just bend over and take whatever deal they're forced to, because they know they have no chance?
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Old 22.01.2015, 17:11
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I didn't say I had a problem with GM products. I said I had a problem with Monsanto.
Ask Angela where I stand on homeopathy and alternative medicine.

Actually I think a lot of big North American corporations have appalling ethics and morals.

My wife is a scientist and has done work specifically with glysophate and crop diseases by insects. I think she has questioned the business ethics of Monsanto too and agrees to a certain extent with my view point.

It's not really a question of science though, is it?
That's fair enough; I'm not familiar with Monsanto's business practices so I can't comment on them, but I am somewhat familiar with genetic engineering technology, which is why I defend GMO food and why I am convinced they are as safe as conventional food. That is why I don't see the necessity for labelling; why label something which has been shown to be the same? The only people who would benefit would be "organic" peddlars, and we've already shown they are similar to Monsanto in turnover as it is.
It's not about "choice"; it's about pseudoscience and scaremongering (and lining Whole Foods' pockets ).
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Old 22.01.2015, 17:24
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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That's fair enough; I'm not familiar with Monsanto's business practices so I can't comment on them, but I am somewhat familiar with genetic engineering technology, which is why I defend GMO food and why I am convinced they are as safe as conventional food. That is why I don't see the necessity for labelling; why label something which has been shown to be the same? The only people who would benefit would be "organic" peddlars, and we've already shown they are similar to Monsanto in turnover as it is.
It's not about "choice"; it's about pseudoscience and scaremongering (and lining Whole Foods' pockets ).
Labelling is about giving people a choice and knowing what they're buying. By not labelling you are refusing that choice. Ultimately the maket should decide which products are succesful and which fail. The market is not always rational. That's life. Remember VHS vs Betamax. Words such as pseudoscience and scaremongering are suggesting people cannot themselves decide what is good for them, and saying they should stick their heads in the sand because their elders and betters are deciding for them. This is the attitude of those who are afraid to face the test of the market, who are failing to explain the situation (obviously, saying how smart and educated you are is not in itself an argument these days, and rather disappointing when coming from somebody claiming to use scientific logic).
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Old 22.01.2015, 18:21
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Also, believe me Tom, I have no recollection on your positions on Homeopathy and such crap...
Probably the same as yours.

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Then at least I misread you because it sounded as you agreed that GMOs should be labeled, weren't you? Also, believe me Tom,
I have no view either way.

I guess I may have a view if the modifications, in the future were not limited to pest or yield control.
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Old 22.01.2015, 20:38
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

Just to give a political economy insight, food labelling is against the spirit of market liberalisation and a country could dispute such labelling under trade barriers clause to the WTO
This is what happened for example with palm oil and food labelling regulation in Australia.

Anyway, I am no expert at all about GMO and stuffs, but I heard from a colleague in the agriculture field, there is no yet sufficient proof whether or not it's safe

I also agree with some posters here, organic food market is just another niche market created by certain global food retailer or supermarket chain, just like the story of bottled water. Some time ago, I read that even Fair Trade coffee is not actually fair for many coffee farmers...
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Old 23.01.2015, 10:22
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Anyway, I am no expert at all about GMO and stuffs, but I heard from a colleague in the agriculture field, there is no yet sufficient proof whether or not it's safe
There are more than enough studies proving they are safe.
I wonder what do people think will happen when you eat food produced from GMOs...(this is not really directed to you FuriousRose)...on the other hand I really don't want to know...
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Old 23.01.2015, 10:45
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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.....
I also agree with some posters here, organic food market is just another niche market created by certain global food retailer or supermarket chain, just like the story of bottled water. Some time ago, I read that even Fair Trade coffee is not actually fair for many coffee farmers...

Well just to devils advocate a bit, (and a bit OT), bottled water is a clean source in many areas of the world where tap water is not pleasant or even drinkable. Even in developed countries: no one has ever died from drinking bottled water, but there have been numerous deaths from drinking tap water. and there is commonly "don't drink your tap water" or "boil before drinking" warnings periodically in many 1st world countries.
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Old 23.01.2015, 10:50
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Well just to devils advocate a bit, (and a bit OT), bottled water is a clean source in many areas of the world where tap water is not pleasant or even drinkable. Even in developed countries: no one has ever died from drinking bottled water, but there have been numerous deaths from drinking tap water. and there is commonly "don't drink your tap water" or "boil before drinking" warnings periodically in many 1st world countries.
I'm interested: where?
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Old 23.01.2015, 10:56
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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From Monsanto's Website:


Since 1997, we have only filed suit against farmers 145 times in the United States. This may sound like a lot, but when you consider that we sell seed to more than 250,000 American farmers a year, it’s really a small number. Of these, we’ve proceeded through trial with only eleven farmers. All eleven cases were found in Monsanto’s favor.

I wonder how many farmers just bend over and take whatever deal they're forced to, because they know they have no chance?
oh it gets better than that - they now sue countries and states:

Monsanto sue Maui and Hawaii:
http://www.inquisitr.com/1659847/mon...-banning-gmos/

Monsanto plans to sue Vermont (they lost):
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014...-labeling-bill

Monsanto sues Germany (they lost):
http://www.dw.de/monsanto-sues-germa...-ban/a-4196705

Monsanto plans to sue the EU:
http://anh-europe.org/news/monsanto-...ta-under-wraps

on the other hand, to cheer us up, here's how a lot of lawyers are making money when farmers and states and countries are obliged to sue Monsanto:
http://occupytheworldfoodprize.com/monsanto

"I rest my case, m'lud".
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:02
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I'm interested: where?
UK
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-n...shire-29274935

Canada
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-22630797
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