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  #81  
Old 23.01.2015, 11:06
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I'm interested: where?

From my personal experience: Ontario Canada. Each municipality has a in depth system in place to produce these "boil water" warnings. I would say on average, almost once a year an area will have such a warning for health safety.
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:10
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

In my opinion one of the question with GMOs is "are they safe for the environment?" that directly connects to "if they are not good for the environment then they are not good for humans"
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:19
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

These guys are scientist who actually do proper research into why organic (or whatever you want to call it) farming makes sense.

http://www.fibl.org/

The debate IMHO shouldn't be about whether GM or organic or whatever produce being better/worse for your health, but if these farming methods are in the long term better/worse for the health of the producers, the consumers, the soil, the animals (especially meat production seems to be one of the worst offenders in furthering antibiotics resistances etc.).
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Old 23.01.2015, 11:24
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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These guys are scientist who actually do proper research into why organic (or whatever you want to call it) farming makes sense.

http://www.fibl.org/

The debate IMHO shouldn't be about whether GM or organic or whatever produce being better/worse for your health, but if these farming methods are in the long term better/worse for the health of the producers, the consumers, the soil, the animals (especially meat production seems to be one of the worst offenders in furthering antibiotics resistances etc.).
More thorough way of saying what I wanted to say, thanks
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Old 23.01.2015, 15:34
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-see...arming/5329947


Lots of such information too on Google.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:05
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

Isn't Organic/Bio just the latest fad/scam to get you to pay more for food?

I mean, most of what I've read is that there is no measurable nutritional difference between Organic/Bio produce and the equivalent non-Organic/Bio item (e.g. comparing tomatoes to tomatoes).

Also, I remember reading that Bio/Organic methods cannot currently produce food in the quantities needed to sustain the global population, if only Organic/Bio methods are used.

So, to me, at least, the whole Organic/Bio thing is just another fad First-World luxury that may not have a strong scientific or factual base to its claims.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:16
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-see...arming/5329947


Lots of such information too on Google.

Although I'm sure there is a lot of information on google, the same can be said for the otherside of the argument.

That being said, globalresearch.com isn't the most unbiased source one could have used. The linked article being written by a writer described as an "eco-feminist" also raises some warning flags.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:18
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I mean, most of what I've read is that there is no measurable nutritional difference between Organic/Bio produce and the equivalent non-Organic/Bio item (e.g. comparing tomatoes to tomatoes).
It's interesting that you mention tomatoes as this is one area where the differences are biggest. Believe me, I've been growing my own tomatoes for years. Just the thought of the supermarket ones makes me cringe and feel sorry for the consumer who thinks that's a tomato.

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Also, I remember reading that Bio/Organic methods cannot currently produce food in the quantities needed to sustain the global population, if only Organic/Bio methods are used.
There is a lot of waste and stupidity going on in agriculture. Bioethanol for example. As long as crops are being used for such pointless experiments (which wouildn't even exist if it wasn't for the subsidies) there would be more capacity to grow food for humans.

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So, to me, at least, the whole Organic/Bio thing is just another fad First-World luxury that may not have a strong scientific or factual base to its claims.
To me its a matter of choice. What's wrong with people spending their own money as they see fit?
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:21
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Isn't Organic/Bio just the latest fad/scam to get you to pay more for food?

I mean, most of what I've read is that there is no measurable nutritional difference between Organic/Bio produce and the equivalent non-Organic/Bio item (e.g. comparing tomatoes to tomatoes).

Also, I remember reading that Bio/Organic methods cannot currently produce food in the quantities needed to sustain the global population, if only Organic/Bio methods are used.

So, to me, at least, the whole Organic/Bio thing is just another fad First-World luxury that may not have a strong scientific or factual base to its claims.
Well, many people believe that organic farming avoids the use of various petrochemical fertilisers and pesticides so it's a bonus for their health. Whether that's true or not, who can tell.
I only trust that my mom's apples and tomatoes are bio.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:23
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Although I'm sure there is a lot of information on google, the same can be said for the otherside of the argument.
ahem

I think that's precisely why Busby posted it. Further up thread somebody was arguing along the lines of "scientists say ... so it must be true" (well actually they were closer to saying, "I'm a scientist so I can't be wrong"). As you can find "scientists say ..." arguments both ways .. you get the message.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:24
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Although I'm sure there is a lot of information on google, the same can be said for the otherside of the argument.

That being said, globalresearch.com isn't the most unbiased source one could have used. The linked article being written by a writer described as an "eco-feminist" also raises some warning flags.
at least they did not quote from naturalnews
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  #92  
Old 23.01.2015, 16:28
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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It's interesting that you mention tomatoes as this is one area where the differences are biggest. Believe me, I've been growing my own tomatoes for years. Just the thought of the supermarket ones makes me cringe and feel sorry for the consumer who thinks that's a tomato.
Yeah, I picked tomatoes very specifically. ;-)



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There is a lot of waste and stupidity going on in agriculture. Bioethanol for example. As long as crops are being used for such pointless experiments (which wouildn't even exist if it wasn't for the subsidies) there would be more capacity to grow food for humans.
Completely agreed, but is "more" enough? I'm opposed to pushing for what amounts to a first-world luxury, if it leaves the third-world in hunger, because there's not enough food, or perhaps a better way to say it, not enough affordable food.


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To me its a matter of choice. What's wrong with people spending their own money as they see fit?
I think you know that I'm pretty free-market on things like this. Buyers can and should spend as they like, and Organic/Bio farmers should be able to compete in the marketplace just as anyone else, and let the merits of their abilities and products decide.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:34
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Isn't Organic/Bio just the latest fad/scam to get you to pay more for food?


I don't think so, no.


Just as far as chickens go, because I happen to be a chicken owner myself: bio chickens aren't treated en masse with antibiotics, the yolks aren't articificially colored, they're required to have more space, have access to shade, 5 square meters of outdoor space per chicken, sand baths, and they're fed grains and corn on the ground so they can scratch as they're naturally supposed to do.


And if all that isn't reason enough, the eggs are proven to be more nutritious thanks to a more varied natural diet.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:38
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I don't think so, no.


Just as far as chickens go, because I happen to be a chicken owner myself: bio chickens aren't treated en masse with antibiotics, the yolks aren't articificially colored, they're required to have more space, have access to shade, 5 square meters of outdoor space per chicken, sand baths, and they're fed grains and corn on the ground so they can scratch as they're naturally supposed to do.


And if all that isn't reason enough, the eggs are proven to be more nutritious thanks to a more varied natural diet.

Sounds very good to me. But do you have a source for this?
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:44
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Sounds very good to me. But do you have a source for this?
Penn State:


http://news.psu.edu/story/140750/200...e-ized-poultry


More Omega 3 fats, more Vitamins A and E in pastured chickens compared to conventially fed/housed chickens, and the numbers increased the longer they were pastured.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:50
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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It's interesting that you mention tomatoes as this is one area where the differences are biggest. Believe me, I've been growing my own tomatoes for years. Just the thought of the supermarket ones makes me cringe and feel sorry for the consumer who thinks that's a tomato.
Yeah, but I'd bet that your tomatoes are better than organic supermarket tomatoes too. You have the time and inclination to care for an individual plant and choose seeds and varieties that don't need to earn their keep.

Comparing any hand-reared food with that produced for a mass market is going to show a much better result. It'd be lovely for everybody to be complete self-sufficient, but unfortunately it's not really realistic.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:54
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Completely agreed, but is "more" enough? I'm opposed to pushing for what amounts to a first-world luxury, if it leaves the third-world in hunger, because there's not enough food, or perhaps a better way to say it, not enough affordable food.
I've heard extremely different opinions on this. I guess people tend to pick the data points that best suit their prejudices and underscore their own personal agenda. It's not just a question of saying you get this much food per square mile and there are this many square miles of usable agricultural land because climatic, soil etc influences all paly a part as indeed do the types of crops you assume people will be eating in 50 years time.

So the only real proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Let things develop naturally and we'll see. As you yourself say, the market is often the best instrument so rather than stopping something because some guy in an ivory tower says it won't work we should let things develop and see.
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Old 23.01.2015, 16:58
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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Penn State:


http://news.psu.edu/story/140750/200...e-ized-poultry


More Omega 3 fats, more Vitamins A and E in pastured chickens compared to conventionally fed/housed chickens, and the numbers increased the longer they were pastured.

It seems to be an mediocre alright study---Interesting perhaps to lead to further investigations, but not a game changer for me, much too editorialized.
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Old 23.01.2015, 17:04
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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I've heard extremely different opinions on this. I guess people tend to pick the data points that best suit their prejudices and underscore their own personal agenda. It's not just a question of saying you get this much food per square mile and there are this many square miles of usable agricultural land because climatic, soil etc influences all paly a part as indeed do the types of crops you assume people will be eating in 50 years time.

So the only real proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Let things develop naturally and we'll see. As you yourself say, the market is often the best instrument so rather than stopping something because some guy in an ivory tower says it won't work we should let things develop and see.
Yes, I'm mostly advocating for a bit of caution, because I believe I see more statements about Bio/Organic being a panacea. I'm not completely convinced yet. My 2 cents. And, btw, my chemically fertilized home grown tomatoes tasted amazing compared to supermarket tomatoes. ;-)
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Old 23.01.2015, 17:10
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Re: Organic/Bio foods

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It seems to be an mediocre alright study---Interesting perhaps to lead to further investigations, but not a game changer for me, much too editorialized.
I don't know much about the difference between industrial eggs and free-range eggs from free-ranging hens who eat a varied diet of the land as far as health is concerned but there's a massive difference in taste.
My eggs here are from my father-in-law's chickens and they taste amazing.

Personally, I don't think GM is the problem but the complacency with the lack of taste of food in some countries. Yes, USA I'm talking about you.

A Swiss friend moved there fairly recently and said that all the food tastes odd.
His wife said she hadn't had a potato that tasted like a potato since she moved there.
Apples and other fruit taste of nothing.

The first thing I noticed when moving to Switzerland was that even in the supermarkets, the apples tasted like those ones you took off a tree when you were a kid.

If the only way to feed the world is to produce tasteless muck then to be honest, I'd rather not bother at all and just give up.
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